Philosophy works

[Tiger1962]

I respect anyone that follows the philosophy of their martial art, whether or not I agree with the principles.

To my own I say I might believe in some of the principles, but not others. I do like to train but would not want the philosophy of my art forced upon me, because then it would turn me off to the whole system. I think it should be optional for the practitioner and not forced upon them by the instructor or organization. As long as one maintains discipline and respect in the training hall and practices and knows their requirements, what beliefs you follow or practice, or who you pray to outside the training hall is your business.

[joesteph]

One of the best books I have found on Western Philosophy is called "The Story of Philosophy" by Will Durant. . . .

Philosophy of the martial arts, however, is a little bit more obscure to research. . . .

Does anybody know of any good martial art philosophy literature? . . .

Does anybody feel that Western Philosophy is dead, except in academia? -JL

"The Story of Philosophy" was written by Will Durant alone, John, and is dedicated to his wife. "The Story of Civilization" is the multi-volume work they collaborated on.

Perhaps you'd be interested in the book "Way of the Peaceful Warrior" by Dan Millman. (It was also made into a motion picture, but just called "Peaceful Warrior.") The book isn't about martial arts per se, but a gymnast who's a world-class athlete, and there are segments within it that cause you to think of the martial arts.

I teach Western philosophy on the high school level. It's alive and well. We just have to look for it, as I have my students do, and, to their surprise, it's all around them.

[JohnC]

Perhaps another way to look at this question is MA training focuses on how to fight. While MA philosophy focuses on why to fight. Are there not situations where one would choose not to fight even though one knows how? More, are there not situations where one would choose not to survive, even though one selfishly could?

I think discussions around MA philosophy are important because they broaden the application of MA past just techniques and tactics. I'm not sure this equates to 'forcing' others into our way of thinking as much as helping create the framework for the student to apply MA training in the real world in an appropriate manner. I feel an issue that keeps coming up, however, is that some couch the discussion in terms of mysticism and metaphysics, which isn't usually very well received in the Western world.

Your thoughts?

[joesteph]

Perhaps another way to look at this question is MA training focuses on how to fight. While MA philosophy focuses on why to fight. Are there not situations where one would choose not to fight even though one knows how? . . . (emphasis added)

In a sense, John, this places MA training (and applications) in the same category as science; science does its best to tell us how the world works (e.g., how to split an atom to release energy), but not why anything exists (Leibniz asked, "Why is there something rather than nothing?"), nor is science a guide for morality (e.g., use atomic/nuclear energy to build a bomb or produce electricity--science can do both, but does not tell us which we ought to do).

I feel an issue that keeps coming up, however, is that some couch the discussion in terms of mysticism and metaphysics, which isn't usually very well received in the Western world.

I would say that mysticism is not generally well-received in the Western world, John, although metaphysics (the ultimate nature of reality) has been received rather well. Frankly, the more science (and it doesn't matter what country--and so its location on the globe--delves into science) gathers information (from subatomic particles to dark matter to dark energy to . . .), the more metaphysical the scientist (particularly the physicist) becomes.

As for me, I'm a Westerner, much more at home with Kant's noumenon and phenomenon, as well as natural law, than Zen or other perspectives of the world as illogical or illusion. Those Westerners who are open to Eastern thought are a subculture in the West, perhaps disenchanted with, or unfilfilled by, Western perspectives, and find solace, even answers, in Eastern thought--and I venture to say that it's vice-versa in the East, the Western perspective as subculture there.

[JohnC]

Sometime buy me a cup of Java and we'll discuss the wherefores of the whys. Might even have a go at solipsism.

As comment, western culture has tended to become almost exclusively left brain oriented (e.g. logic), to the extent that right brain orientation (e.g. intuition) is essentially ignored. Eastern culture isn't completely the opposite but tends, I feel, to have a bit better balance. Science is based in the measuring of things and so has limited itself almost exclusively to that which can be measured. I think the universe is a bit more complex than that. In the same way that I think there's more to us than surgeons can remove. Finally, as Arthur C. Clarke put it: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Look forward to the cup of Joe, bro.

[bushido_man96]

Perhaps another way to look at this question is MA training focuses on how to fight. While MA philosophy focuses on why to fight. Are there not situations where one would choose not to fight even though one knows how? More, are there not situations where one would choose not to survive, even though one selfishly could?

I think discussions around MA philosophy are important because they broaden the application of MA past just techniques and tactics. I'm not sure this equates to 'forcing' others into our way of thinking as much as helping create the framework for the student to apply MA training in the real world in an appropriate manner. I feel an issue that keeps coming up, however, is that some couch the discussion in terms of mysticism and metaphysics, which isn't usually very well received in the Western world.

Your thoughts?

I think that this is pretty well said. I think it is important to talk about when it is ok to use your physical skills, and when it might be wise to use skills of avoidance (which should still fall under some Martial principles).

Say, wait a minute...don't I know you, JohnC???

[JohnC]

Yarp. Recognized my "style" no doubt.

[bushido_man96]

It was "Your thoughts?" that tipped me off first.