Grappling and Bruce Lee

[Johnlogic121]

Wrestling and grappling are very old forms of combat. The ancient Greeks not only recognized a form of boxing, but they also had a style called "Pankration," meaning "all-powerful," and the majority of pankration fighting methods were fought on the ground in various prone positions. It included hair-pulling, biting, stomach punching, gonad grabs, eye gouging, and wrestling holds. The idea in pankration was to essentially wrestle using all kinds of "dirty tricks" that illegal in most fighting contests today. Archeologists have also found some Egyptian pyramids that had wall paintings depicting hundreds of manuevers from some kinds of ancient wrestling system that may have been used by Egyptian warriors. Down through the ages and up to modern times, armies used to grapple when they came into close quarters combat. At the time of the Civil War, hand to hand combat injuries from bayonets and sabers and other melee means accounted for only 1% of the total casualties. Wars have relied on hand to hand combat even less and less ever since, but urban fighting environments have many opportunities for soldiers to ambush and surprise each other in close proximity and thus fight with knives or bare hands. Many people have heard of the Russian fighting system called Sambo, which is primarily a grappling system similiar to Judo. Additionally, grappling fighting is a significant part of the UFC fighting contests, which are considered by many to be some of the most realistic fighting ever filmed. This raises an interesting question about one of the world's famous fighting legends: Bruce Lee. Why didn't Bruce Lee grapple more? His book on Jeet Kune Do does offer a few simple holds, but many other books are much more elaborate about this area. Could Lee have been a better martial artist if his orginal style had not been Wing Chun but something more similiar to Judo? How would this orginal style difference effected the origins of Jeet Kune Do? According to what I have read, Bruce's reacton to his Wing Chun teacher is what motivated him to leave Wing Chun after learning 70% of the system and seek "what is useful" from other arts. However, one could argue that he never found another teacher he liked as much as his original Wing Chun teacher because he continuously moved around until he studied about thirty different styles. Should modern Jeet Kune Do practioners get more into grappling? Would this be a significant improvement to JKD as we know it? How would Bruce Lee feel about modern grappling artists today? -JL

[tallgeese]

It's all hypothosis, of course, but I'd say that the reason you don't see more of ground fighting in Tao is simply because Bruse had not yet been exposed to it.

Remember, that JKD was and is an evolving art form. New movments were probibly constantly being added to Bruce's thoughts on JKD. By the late 70's no one had really seen any sort of modern, systemized, ground fighting system. It took the marketing genius of the Gracies to make the world really stand up and take notice.

I've said it before here, I think that the Gracies the same revolutionizing impact on modern MA's as Bruce did. I think that he just hadn't seen it yet.

Would he have incorported it had he been expsed to it? WHo knows, I whould venture a guess that he would have, but it's all supposition.

As for JKDers doing grapping, yes, they do. That's pretty much the premis of the founding members out of the Straight Blast camp. And all of the guys I've worked with out of there had their stuff pretty squared away. The "take what is useful" principle keeps JKD eveolving past where Bruce left it (for most pratitioners it seems), so it's only logical that modern ones would reach out to include ground fighting.

[ps1]

I agree. Bruce Lee was very much about learning that something works because it could work on him. I believe he would have put up the money and taken the Gracie challenge in a heartbeat. After losing (yes...he would have lost...everyone loses the first time) he would quickly have added what he felt he needed.

In the movie Enter the Dragon, he clearly performs a flying armbar on an opponent. I think that is enough to demonstrate he would have liked some of it.

He would not, however, have bought into the sport grappling I think. Unless he just enjoyed the strategic game it employs.

[bushido_man96]

Well, currently, many JKD practitioners have already added ground fighting components to their training. There is no question that learning to grapple would have made Lee a better Martial Artist. I do believe that he did work some with Gene LeBell, but I can't recall for sure. I do think that as time went on, he would have exposed himself to more grappling styles.

[pittbullJudoka]

Lee workedwith Gene Lebell and Wally Jay both in their respected arts. Mind you that Lee worked with Jay before Small Circle Jujitsu was as it is today.

[NightOwl]

Gene was a good friend of Lee's and they trained together http://www.genelebell.com/stories.html#11

I've even heard (as is always the case with the legends of Lee) that he was starting to work on grappling before he died. However of the systems he focused on (Wing Chun which he mostly dropped, fencing, boxing) there isn't much grappling involved.

[ShoriKid]

Lee worked with LeBell and good ol' "Judo Gene" came from a family that included old style catch wrestlers and boxers. What Lee was looking at by what's in ao seemed to be basics that could be learned and mastered quickly and employed in a variety of ways. Just like a lead straight is a key tool, simple and effective, so to are arm bars.

Also look at what frame work he was building around. I'm sure his knowledge of ground fighting would have expanded, but he was looking for survival tools to add to the kit of stand up weapons he felt were needed for a real fight.

[Chucksmanhood]

I read on another forum (judo forum) that he was a big fan of grappling and one of his favourite moves was the juji-gatame (arm bar).

I also read on another forum that Bruce Lee thought the most 'realistic' fight scene ever shot for a movie was the fight scene in the film 'BLOOD ON THE SUN' which starred James Cagney (Black Belt Judo).

[glockmeister]

In JKD, we do quite a bit of grappling but mainly for the purpose of being able to get back to your feet, not turning a self defense situation into a long, drawn out wrestling match.

[bushido_man96]

In JKD, we do quite a bit of grappling but mainly for the purpose of being able to get back to your feet, not turning a self defense situation into a long, drawn out wrestling match.

This is the same theme that I have seen in Defensive Tactics training. Improve the position, get off, and get to a different tool if you have to, to end the encounter.