Zen and Martial Arts Practice

[Wa-No-Michi]

And of course I mean confucian not confusion.

Blimin spell check!!!

[Wa-No-Michi]

If you train in traditional budo it tends to be embedded in the pedagogy of the system anyway or at least the elements that are needed to make the martial side of the art functional.... and that is all that is important to me.

And believe it or not you CAN do this easily and without having to refer to each other as "grasshopper".

Also, I think if you a practicing (seriously) an eastern based ma you are probably doing it anyway - even if you don't realise it.

[joesteph]

And of course I mean confucian not confusion.

I wondered what you meant by "from a 'confusion' society," Wa-No-Michi. Thanks for clearing up the confusion about Confucian.

[tallgeese]

To think you are automatically doing it might be a mistake. I've seen plenty of schools that were seriously lacking in any level of realism during training.

Now, these individual might have been practicing what they were taught with all seriousness but without any grounding in the realities of conflict they were simply getting very good and movements with no real application. Just my two cents.

I think that your chances are good that ma practice can help to instill this type of instinct, however, modern traditional mas may not transmit it as much as one would think. This, of course, depends on the school and teacher, as do most other things.

[joesteph]

To think you are automatically doing it might be a mistake. I've seen plenty of schools that were seriously lacking in any level of realism during training. . . .

I think that your chances are good that ma practice can help to instill this type of instinct, however, modern traditional mas may not transmit it as much as one would think. This, of course, depends on the school and teacher, as do most other things.

In reading your posting, Tallgeese, and in recent (last two months) MA happenings in my life, I've considered that traditional martial arts, with practitioners sticking strictly to the way of the traditional martial art, choose a path that Easterners might say leads to "enlightenment" (satori), while those who reinterpret the traditional martial arts, with practitioners improvising, seeking creatively to match the reality of MA combat, choose a path that Westerners would say leads to "self-actualization" (as the psychologist Abraham Maslow spoke of being the highest personal development level, attained by no more than 2% of the [Western] population).

[Wa-No-Michi]

To think you are automatically doing it might be a mistake. I've seen plenty of schools that were seriously lacking in any level of realism during training.

Now, these individual might have been practicing what they were taught with all seriousness but without any grounding in the realities of conflict they were simply getting very good and movements with no real application. Just my two cents.

I think that your chances are good that ma practice can help to instill this type of instinct, however, modern traditional mas may not transmit it as much as one would think. This, of course, depends on the school and teacher, as do most other things.

Of course you should never automatically assume.

Actually Tallgeese, I am a "traditional" martial artist (I don't know if that therefore makes me a modern traditional martial artist), and I agree, that your chances of finding an instructor who can transmit these precepts are incredibly rare these days. Probably less than Joe's 2%.

Therefore I genuinely think that a student will give themselves a far better chance of realising this if they steered well away from traditional based arts and went for the contemporary option.

So; should all of us Traditional Martial artists come to our senses and realise that the arts (that some of us have been practicing for over 20 years) will "probably" NOT work in a fight, and start training in MMA?

Rhetorical question of course.

[tallgeese]

I don't think that MMA is the only option out there. In fact, it's not all that I do even now. There are tons of items that aren't addressed therein that sd focused ma'ists should think about. Weapons defense, small joint manipulation tools, targets that are often out of bounds in mma comps, all are good reasons to look outside that box for a complete fighter that is interested in sd combat.

However, the application of training methods used in mma can and I think should be seriously addressed by ma'ers interested in training in sd.

[Wa-No-Michi]

I don't think that MMA is the only option out there. In fact, it's not all that I do even now. There are tons of items that aren't addressed therein that sd focused ma'ists should think about. Weapons defense, small joint manipulation tools, targets that are often out of bounds in mma comps, all are good reasons to look outside that box for a complete fighter that is interested in sd combat.

However, the application of training methods used in mma can and I think should be seriously addressed by ma'ers interested in training in sd.

So if I don't want to do that, should I give up?

[tallgeese]

I don't think I've ever advocated that anyone give up training in any way that they wanted. However, I'm not entirely certain to what part of my post you're referring to in you last statement, michi. You should train however you want.

My point of view has always been to most efficiently learn to fight. That's why I think some of mma's training protocols could be used by sd-ers to streamline training. Constant use of movement during drills, constant training against live bad guys, things like that. Realistically simulating the conditions that you're training for. The list goes on.

Train however you like. And just like me, realize that there are other ways out there.

[bushido_man96]

Therefore I genuinely think that a student will give themselves a far better chance of realising this if they steered well away from traditional based arts and went for the contemporary option.

So; should all of us Traditional Martial artists come to our senses and realise that the arts (that some of us have been practicing for over 20 years) will "probably" NOT work in a fight, and start training in MMA?

Rhetorical question of course.

I don't think it is so much a case of abandoning your ways, but of tailoring your training to include other ideas, and not limited to just physical self-defense.

For example, bringing in a police officer to teach your class how to speak with officers after an encounter. Teaching the use of force curriculum. And something I would like to do more of myself, dealing with pre- and post-fight concepts.