To Roundhouse traditional or to not

[GOM]

NorthernDragon - I call it shoto as it wasn't the Shotokan taught by Nishiyama or Nakayama, but pre-JKA karate. We did Shoto(kan) kata, but a little different to how JKA or SKI did theirs.

I guess we were practising shoto based karate before the JKA modernised and changed the P.E karate system. We would always have a bit of a chuckle at those who practised mawashi geri with the ball of the foot.

[Zanshin]

We would always have a bit of a chuckle at those who practised mawashi geri with the ball of the foot.

Hmm! Personally, I would be reluctant to "chuckle" at things just because they are not done in a similar way to how I understand to be correct.

[ShoriKid]

The high rear chamber for power side rounds is, as, I think, it was Zanshin said, an early stage teaching method. Get the gross movement down and then begin to refine it after someone can throw the technique without falling over. A good traditional "chamber" is bringing the back leg straight through like your about to throw a front kick. After that point, the body shifts and you alter the kick from there, chosing from what is open and can best strike the target. That method leaves you with the option to fire off a front, side or round kick. Body torque etc will change of course depending on the kick you end up using. So, the high in rear, swing around chamber is not really traditional no. It does offer more torque and power than the point of origin round kick in most cases though.

Now hitting with the top of the foot is fine to the head in competion and sparring if your not looking to do too much damage. Other wise, the thigh, side of body and head/neck can, and in my opinion(which with a $1 will get you a cup of coffee), and will inflict much more damage. The ball of the foot, or toes if you've conditioned, limits your range somewhat, but has much more penitration. It also does not expose all the fine bones of the foot to the hard surfaces it may encounter during a kick. Taking and elbow, shin or knee to the top of the foot is very painful and can easily cause injury. The ball though, has a different set of targets compaired to the shin. Try and inside thigh kick with the ball of the foot and see the difference in reaction compaired to a shin. If you've trained enough to position the foot right, your toes are as safe as anything else for that strike. The front of the body, where the shin won't penitrate, is the other prime target for the ball of the foot. Instead of dispersing the impact area over the abs and possibly a couple of ribs, its in one small spot.

Is the ball of the foot more 'traditional'? Who's tradition? For Okinawans, I'd say, depends on the target. With their love of conditioned toes and kicking the body with them, I'd say, very. Though most will lay shins on you just as hard as anyone else. For other types/styles of karate or Tae Kwon Do? Can't say for sure. Though I've trained with a lot of folks, I don't often get deep into the history of their style unless it's a whole lot of training.

[Dobbersky]

Northern Dragon

Yes Enshin is a offshot of Ashihara, Kancho Ninomiya was Ashihara O Sensei' Student in Kyokushin and when Ashihara O Sensei left Kyokushin Kancho Ninomiya was Ashihara O Sensei' Right Hand Man - Probably assisting Ashihara O Sensei with the 'Throwing' aspects of the style (Kancho Ninomiya was a Judo Champ before joining Kyokushin).

Kissakai I believe is actually an Offshot of Shotokan one of it founders is Shihan Ian Morris who was part of the Original UK Karate Team who beat the Japanese back in the 70's

Ashihara Round kick comes up from the front then whips around at the last second - similar to the Kyokushin round kick.

Osu

[DWx]

Just a question to GOM, what's the reason for the instep vs the ball of the foot? In TKD, for most not sportive uses of the roundhouse it tends to be the ball or the instep that we use. Certainly with regards to breaking boards and the like, an instep kick is generally considered more advanced as the impact force is not as concentrated. There is also the risk of crushing the bones on the top of the foot.

[GOM]

Just a question to GOM, what's the reason for the instep vs the ball of the foot? In TKD, for most not sportive uses of the roundhouse it tends to be the ball or the instep that we use. Certainly with regards to breaking boards and the like, an instep kick is generally considered more advanced as the impact force is not as concentrated. There is also the risk of crushing the bones on the top of the foot.

For sport kumite, kicking with the instep is much safer (for the person kicking) than using the ball of the foot. But for SD, kicking with the shin is far better than the instep. There is a bigger range with your shin v instep, and the shin is much stronger. In SD situations, kicking above the waist is a big no no.

[bushido_man96]

I think that there is a noticeable difference in the power that I get from a high round kick chamber and a more forwards round kick chamber. I do both. I also like to strike with the ball of the foot, and have never had a problem with it. Striking with the top of the foot is good, but as was mentioned, it doesn't focus the power as much.

When I break boards, I can do 2 with the top of my foot. When I use the ball of the foot, and a high chamber, I can break 4 boards.

My thoughts on the high chamber are that it allows for greater power and torque. The forward chamber is faster, and you can use it as a chamber for either the front, round, or side kick. I don't feel that these kicks end up with the same amount of power as they would with a more particular chamber motion, i.e., the high round kick chamber. Of course, with enough practice, one may be able to rectify this.

As for the tools, I do think that the shin is probably one of the better options to strike with. It is a hard bone, and can do good damage. Be careful when striking with the top of the foot, especially if you don't have any footwear on. I have been known to block many instep round kicks with my elbows, and it tends to alter the way that the fighter fights afterwards.

[Sasori_Te]

Kicking with the ball and toe of the foot has been a part of both the Naha and Shuri Te Lineage systems since the techniques were imported from China. Uechi Ryu Karate ( Pangai Noon Gong Fu ) still utilizes the big toe and ball of the foot to devastating effect. The body has to be highly conditioned to do this however. I found some video of Shinjo Kiyohide Sensei doing various breaks and one of them is a big toe kick. You can see it at the following link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWfXX5aQhjc

These kicking variations all depend on the body part being targeted and the skill of the kicker.

[bushido_man96]

I have seen some of the big toe breaks, but with front kicks. Really nasty, and I don't see myself doing anything like that....ever. Those guys with the conditioning to do it, though, are something else.

[Zanshin]

I have seen some of the big toe breaks, but with front kicks. Really nasty, and I don't see myself doing anything like that....ever. Those guys with the conditioning to do it, though, are something else.

Well, you might do it if you have a good pair of shoes on maybe?

Personally, I quite like it as an option as it seems to me that it would hurt your opponent more, but then I guess thats just me. I am not a nice chap really!