How to fight larger opponents

[shujika]

“The best way to fight a bigger stronger opponent is to put him on his back. “

uh?....What??? I would definitely beg to differ. I'm not dissagreeing with your further commets (about taking off after dropping them, BUT, (aside from guys on “talk forums” LOL) who gets in the most altercations? ...... L.E. Officers. Now I'm not advocating everything they do (technique wise) but how many cops have you ever seen put a suspect on their back? (intentionally). Very few (unless they screwed up). A man on his back now has both arms and both legs he can use against you (until you get your “mount”, “control technique” or whatever). That can leave a lot of room to “Jack-you-up” while you work out your “mounting”. Your MUCH better off having said “bad guy” on the ground FACE DOWN, belly on the ground. You want as much advantage as you can get. Putting someone on their back is only “barely” a disadvantage. If you don't posses techniques to neutralize an opponent from the back,.....I think it's time to “rethink” your stratagems.

[tallgeese]

Ok, from the LE prespective alluded to above.

I drop guys on their back all the time and work from there. Yes, they have two arms pointed up but good position will often negate this. Not to mention, you often have back up offcers that can now move in to control those arms. Now, from this very controled position, your little team can easily roll this guy over to a proned out cuffing position.

I' certainly not suggesting that this is the only way to do things, but it's not a bad idea either. And generally speaking, on top of a mount position you will be in way better position to deleiver strikes downward with much more effect than anyone punching up at you.

Let's face it, an opponant on the ground, on their back, has suddenly lost the ability to use most of his weight agaist you while delevering a strike. Therefore, your advantage has shot up considerably. Additionally, lots of guys are uncomfortable on the ground and hence, more easily controled. Just about anyone can haymaker away and get lucky now and again.

Also for consideration, small joint manipulations are often tricky to apply at best, and I come out of that background. The full body tackle is much easier to apply and much more likely to be effective in the heat of a confrontation. It is also more effective with the minimal amount of time that most cops spend training.

Again, it's not the be all and end all. I've used tuite style movments plenty and other joint manipulations as well. But the top postion with the bady guy on his back is a pretty good starting point in my book.

[fleasome]

He was quoting “The best way to fight a bigger stronger opponent is to put him on his back. “

By that, I think he was saying that prone is better than supine and I would most def concur in my experience.

Opponent Supine:

They have Hand/Fist available to punch, grab, slap

They have Leg available to kick, trip, etc.

They have eyes available.

Opponent Prone:

They can't see what you are doing.

Have nothing but their rear end to attack with, and gaseous emissions.

Yes, it is easy to flip someone from Supine to Prone IF you have control. If you have assistance sometimes that helps. Other times your partner is hindering you because they are pulling in the opposite direction, etc.

So in my opinion, if I had to pick Prone or Supine for any opponent, I would want them proned out. Numerous techniques from arm bars, shoulder locks, wrist locks, to vulcan mind melds can put them there and pin them.

An opponent on their back can't put all their weight into a punch or kick as said before, but if they are proned out, they can't really put anything into a punch or kick until they raise or twist to get into position.

In my opinion, and from my experience training with someone on top of me in any various mounts, when I am face up I can block, punch, kick, twist, etc a whole lot better. Just look at any of the various fights that have been on TV since the UFC started. People on the bottom on their backs still can punch. On their bellies, not so much.

In real life situations I've seen for the past 17 years on the streets, and particularly now that everything is on dash cameras, we get in a lot much more trouble when people are taken down on their backs.

My two yen.

[tallgeese]

Ceratianly proning out is the best control for handcuffing ect.

However, I was simply pointing out that a dude on his back is better than one on his feet hitting you. Certainly a high degree of contorl and escape can be exerted from here as well, I just don't think it should be dismissed as an option, that's all.

[MMA_Jim]

“The best way to fight a bigger stronger opponent is to put him on his back. “

uh?....What??? I would definitely beg to differ. I'm not dissagreeing with your further commets (about taking off after dropping them, BUT, (aside from guys on “talk forums” LOL) who gets in the most altercations? ...... L.E. Officers. Now I'm not advocating everything they do (technique wise) but how many cops have you ever seen put a suspect on their back? (intentionally).

Practically all the time- whenever a police officer initiates an arrest against a resisting suspect they generally take them to the ground.

A man on his back now has both arms and both legs he can use against you (until you get your “mount”, “control technique” or whatever). That can leave a lot of room to “Jack-you-up” while you work out your “mounting”.

A man on his back is helpless, unless he has any knowledge of groundfighting and as such has knowledge of the ground. Theres nothing your opponent can "jack up" when hes mounted.

Your MUCH better off having said “bad guy” on the ground FACE DOWN, belly on the ground. You want as much advantage as you can get. Putting someone on their back is only “barely” a disadvantage.

Putting someone on their back is as big a disadvantage as you could get- especially considering how much weight a larger person can get behind his strikes when on the feet. When on his back he no longer has the ability to utlize his size advantage and unless he has knowledge of the ground game he is in trouble (i.e. at a disadvantage) regardless of how much he tries to kick and flail about.

As far as putting someone face down, you're talking about getting your opponents back- this is called the back mount. The back mount and the mount are the most advantageous positions one can acheive while on the ground. A usually progression that occurs when putting untrained people to the ground is they end up giving their back. For example, do you know how to get up from the ground without giving the back position? Few people do. Most will roll over to their stomach and attempt to get back to their feet by pushing themselves up. In doing so, they give their back.

That being said, almost all takedowns are designed to put your opponent on his back. Whether your opponent gives you the opportunity to take the back position depends on HOW HE REACTS. Whether or not you get the back position depends on how versed you are in groundfighting. Simply put, your opponent does jiu jitsu to himself- his reactions tell you what to do. So its less of a decision of what you're going to do (i.e. "Im going to put him on the ground face down and take his back!") and more along the lines of what your opponent gives you (i.e. " I took him down, and he didnt know what he was doing- he tried to roll over to get back to his feet made the mistake of giving up his back")

Let me summarize in a phrase made popular by JJM: "I am a shark- the ground is my ocean... and most people dont even know how to swim"

If you don't posses techniques to neutralize an opponent from the back,.....I think it's time to “rethink” your stratagems.

Shujika, taking your opponents back is perhaps the best position to get, however this depends on whether or not you have your "hooks" in or you are attacking your opponents "turtle" position. Your hooks are your feet, which act as control on your opponent, allowing you to keep your position on his back, despite his rolling around trying to get you off. This frees up your hands from doing this task, and therefore allows them to attack your opponents neck with various strangles. One is the perhaps the most effective move ever devised- its called the rear naked choke.

[baronbvp]

Great discussion. I would say the entire argument depends on why exactly you want to fight this larger person. If he has friends around, a ground fight isn't one I'd want to be in - all tied up and working a problem that takes time. If he has big huge tree trunk legs, your ax kick to the knee might work - or just make him mad, especially if you don't execute it correctly under stress. If you are trying to fight your way out of a bad and unavoidable situation, and it's one on one, then the trick is to decide the best way to execute a plan to get to safety.

IMHO, ending up with your opponent in cuffs requires a different fight gameplan than your safe and quick exit from an altercation you don't really want to be in.

Maybe you just talk all psycho and outrun the guy.

[bushido_man96]

Hey, Baron! Good to see you back!

As far as getting someone on their back goes, it stands to reason that it is a big advantage, if getting him there is your goal to buy time or escape. Just because you get them to their back doesn't mean you have to go to the ground and try to Wrestle with him to finish the fight. Knock them to their back, then make a break for it. Keep it simple.

[baronbvp]

Nice to be back, Bushido Man. I live in Germany now - who'd a thunk it.

Good point about getting them on their back and not necessarily grappling with them. But as an analogy, there are some NFL players that would stand solidly fixed with their feet on the ground, laughing as I tried to take them down. Some lions aren't worth taming. I'm gettin' too old to take a big paw to the side of the head while I'm kicking at some huge guy's knee.

Of course, it there was no way out, I'd do my best to go all Jackie Chan on the guy. Maybe get a trophy ear before getting pummeled into the ground.

[bushido_man96]

That's a valid point to make, but at the same time, I wouldn't want to dance with a guy that big, either. Taking a knee might be a safer bet.

[boyo1991]

to take a larger opponent i use:

keep shots low, dont look for k.o. you cant kick high enough to unless u are really flexible

keep moving(general)

dont be intimidated..

works for me