What exactly is a TMA?

[bushido_man96]

Also (again this is a generalization) students are taught in more of a formulaic way, such as bowing in, lining up, practicing forms etc. MMA or "modern" styles seem to take a more liberal approach.

These, again, are mostly Eastern procedures for doing Martial Arts. We just don't do those things in the West as a natural thing. So, does that mean that because the West has a more "liberal" approach to things, that there can be no "traditional" Western Martial Arts? I don't believe so.

[DWx]

Also (again this is a generalization) students are taught in more of a formulaic way, such as bowing in, lining up, practicing forms etc. MMA or "modern" styles seem to take a more liberal approach.

These, again, are mostly Eastern procedures for doing Martial Arts. We just don't do those things in the West as a natural thing. So, does that mean that because the West has a more "liberal" approach to things, that there can be no "traditional" Western Martial Arts? I don't believe so.

It depends on whether you are going to take the title "traditional" as in the dictionary definition or as word to describe a particular branch of fighting arts. Whether its correct to do so or not, the term "traditional martial arts" is more closely linked to the East rather than the West. If you ask a general member of the public who has no experience of MAs at all to name a "traditional martial art", chances are they are going to name an Eastern style. They probably wont even view most Western styles as "martial arts" even though technically, by definition, they are. In fact some of the lads I know that box wouldn't dream of calling it a "martial art". Sure they'll admit that by definition it is one, but they wouldn't lay that title on it. Its all down to semantics in the end. To elaborate on my earlier point, what I was getting at is that the styles which are seen as "TMAs" tend to be styles that haven't really changed their teaching methods from the "old ways" as in they are steeped in strict doctrines and philosophies whereas, IMO, certain Western (such as boxing or wrestling) arts are more liberal because they adapt are are perhaps more suited to today's culture. But again that is my own opinion.

[bushido_man96]

It depends on whether you are going to take the title "traditional" as in the dictionary definition or as word to describe a particular branch of fighting arts. Whether its correct to do so or not, the term "traditional martial arts" is more closely linked to the East rather than the West. If you ask a general member of the public who has no experience of MAs at all to name a "traditional martial art", chances are they are going to name an Eastern style.

This may be the case, but why would we let the layman define what we do, when we are the ones experienced in it? The problem with bringing the definition along for the Western arts is because most of them have gone the route of sports, and no one wants to call a combat sport a Martial Art.

[DWx]

It depends on whether you are going to take the title "traditional" as in the dictionary definition or as word to describe a particular branch of fighting arts. Whether its correct to do so or not, the term "traditional martial arts" is more closely linked to the East rather than the West. If you ask a general member of the public who has no experience of MAs at all to name a "traditional martial art", chances are they are going to name an Eastern style.

This may be the case, but why would we let the layman define what we do, when we are the ones experienced in it? The problem with bringing the definition along for the Western arts is because most of them have gone the route of sports, and no one wants to call a combat sport a Martial Art.

Because the layman is probably upwards of 80% of the population (don't quote me on that, its just a guess) and they will carry the majority opinion. As the ones who experience it, I think we probably all have our own personal bias and opinions and considering we are the "educated", our own views may not reflect the general concensus. In that case, are we defining the term TMA from a general perspective or from the perspective of an educated martial artist?

[bushido_man96]

I would think that the field experts should be the one to give the description. You wouldn't ask a layman to define what a brain surgeon does, or a neurosurgeon.

[ShoriKid]

The "generally accepted" way of defining TMA is that they are an Eastern fighting system, usually with a philisophical under pinning, that has existed for at least 50 years. Most people will think of Japanese(and Okinawan) and Chinese systems as falling into this mold. Along with the Korean styles they are what the vast majority of people, and even many martial artists, would define as TMA.

While Boxing and wrestling havea history that can be traced back to the Greeks and Egyptians, and were used in a combative manner all the way up untill say, the early 18th century, most people are familar only with their sporting aspect.

bushido_man,

I think the difference of definition by a lay person and the dedicated martial artist, which is not to be confused with a casual pracitioner, comes more from prespective. People who have been around the arts a long time or have studied them intensively, are those neurosurgeons. And while you wouldn't ask a lay person to define the job of the neurosurgeon and expect a good answer, many will offer one. It's a tendancy to believe that you know more than you do and a willingness to offer up opinions on what you 'know'. However, the more technical the field, the less likely someone is to argue that their view is correct when faced with a certified expert. I've noticed this in acidemic circles. A scientist or mathmatician is rarely argued with by a lay person, or even someone possessing a non-related degreed. The lay person knows they are in over their head because they had that freshman survey of algebra and it was tough. On the other hand, they recall freshman English lit or history and, having read a book, or watched Shakespear/the History channel, consider themselves as much an expert as the person fully trained with a degree. They will argue points in the face of evidence overwhelming.

The same happens to martial atists. People have seen movies, or trained for a few weeks and suddenly they are expert enough to argue with someone with more than a decade or two of dedication. So, in a way, the lay person is going to define what a TMA is to anyone not closely tied to a good, or experienced, martial artist. It's sad, but the best we can hope to do is educate one person at a time. Usually,this will happen once they've ht the training hall floor.

[bushido_man96]

Ok, everyone, look this website over briefly: Association for Renaissance Martial Arts.

Is this a "Traditional" Martial Art in your eyes? If so, explain. If not, explain.

[DWx]

Ok, everyone, look this website over briefly: Association for Renaissance Martial Arts.

Is this a "Traditional" Martial Art in your eyes? If so, explain. If not, explain.

Yes if you using the dictionary definition and the experts ShoriKid explained. It is traditional MA.

But..

No if you are viewing it in the eyes of the public or as the title "Traditional Martial Arts" has come to mean. I think the term has become more of an idiom where the actual meaning is not what the perceived meaning is.

[bushido_man96]

But..

No if you are viewing it in the eyes of the public or as the title "Traditional Martial Arts" has come to mean. I think the term has become more of an idiom where the actual meaning is not what the perceived meaning is.

I don't quite understand what your meaning is here. What is the difference between the material discussed on this website, and that of the Japanese sword arts (which would be considered "traditional")?

[DWx]

But..

No if you are viewing it in the eyes of the public or as the title "Traditional Martial Arts" has come to mean. I think the term has become more of an idiom where the actual meaning is not what the perceived meaning is.

I don't quite understand what your meaning is here. What is the difference between the material discussed on this website, and that of the Japanese sword arts (which would be considered "traditional")?

I probably haven't explained myself very well. The actual content and nature of Renaissance MA is traditional but it doesn't fit into Traditional. Its kinda hard for me to explain what I mean without an example. Like there is a difference between using the proper noun as a title and the common noun as a descriptor. A bit of a tenuous example I can think of is when you say the word "liberal" it means you are more easygoing and free but if you say "Liberal" with a capital then you are referring to the political party.

Just as sort of a side point to further the layman argument, if you look up the term "martial art" in a dictionary, of the 3 that show up in this search, all 3 refer to Aisian / Oriental practices.