Broken Bones and Wrist Locks

[bushido_man96]

Go against a fully resistning opponent, and you may find that applying a wrist lock is more difficult than expected. Also, the size and strength of the individual comes into play. They do have their uses, but you have to be smart when applying them.

I dissagree. You should use the technique as quickly and fluently without pulling back. If size and strength become an issue, I think you're not good enough at the technique.

I don't agree. I have a brother who outweighs me by 2 times. I have tried to grab his arm, and apply a wrist lock. It doesn't happen. It has nothing to do with my skill level. I am not saying that it wouldn't work if applied in the proper scenario, but you have to have a good scenario. Personally, I prefer distraction techniques, or what I would rather call "diminishing" techniques, to soften up the opponent prior to applying a wrist or other manipulation technique.

[NightOwl]

Go against a fully resistning opponent, and you may find that applying a wrist lock is more difficult than expected. Also, the size and strength of the individual comes into play. They do have their uses, but you have to be smart when applying them.

I dissagree. You should use the technique as quickly and fluently without pulling back. If size and strength become an issue, I think you're not good enough at the technique.

I don't agree. I have a brother who outweighs me by 2 times. I have tried to grab his arm, and apply a wrist lock. It doesn't happen. It has nothing to do with my skill level. I am not saying that it wouldn't work if applied in the proper scenario, but you have to have a good scenario. Personally, I prefer distraction techniques, or what I would rather call "diminishing" techniques, to soften up the opponent prior to applying a wrist or other manipulation technique.

Exactly. You won't be able to get it against a resisting opponent with out utilizing footwork, timing, etc. It is nothing like the one step drills that they are usually practiced in where you can drop anybody no matter what size. As for the Chinese experimenting with it during WWII I am going to call a no go on that one. The Chinese army was hardly organized- they were very much a 3rd world country divided between the nationalists, communists, and warlords. At the same time, the Japanese were completely destroying them. devoting time to large scale studies on unarmed combat when all of your enemies are packing rifles and your government is in shambles doesn't make sense.

[Bushido-Ruach]

If breaking a bone is the aim (in order to secure the "victory"), the wrist isn't the only good place. It only takes 8 pounds of pressure to break the collar bone, which you can accomplish with a palm strike or hammer fist. It is kind of hard to raise your arm to punch someone with a broken collar bone...unless he is high or in a blind rage. Personally, if I have too, I like breaking the arm at the elbow from a punch...striking the elbow with the forearm after capturing the wrist. I have never had to use it (yet), but I talked to someone who was badly hurt with this kind of technique and he said it hurt like hell and he couldn't do anything with his arm for a while after that.

[NewEnglands_KyoSa]

I think wrist locks are great and effective. With the proper set strike and general set up i find that they work effectively against those of many strengths and sizes.

And as far as the whole breaking the bone thing, i never expect to break a bone with ANY of my techniques, even if that is their intent. I want to be prepared for the worst and maintain my humility, but if the bone breaks in the process, i am certainly not against that! The more broken the merry-er. And a broken bone is a broken bone, end of story, no matter who you are it WILL hinder your fighting. If it isnt a finger, toe, or nose or anything of insignificant value it will hinder your fighting in some way shape or form.

[tallgeese]

Well, I come out of joint lock-heavy system and I have to give them a mixed review.

First off, I was always taught that you NEVER attempt a locking manunuver without stunning the attacker first. That means that for me, hitting the dude prior to applying force to a joint is pretty much a given. I think that in most circumstances, this makes them work more effectively and sometimes, it may be the only way to get them applied (ie. a heay resister or strong guy).

That being said, i've had the opportunity to apply joint locks in self-defense situations and they've worked pretty well. Again, situations will dictate if you need to cease the effort or continue on with it. They are much harder to apply than one might think, and sometimes you get less than anticipated results.

On a personal note, I had a wrist broken via an aiki throw during training years ago. It was during heavy "all on" sparring and my training partner tossed me with a wrist lock (after elbowing my headgear into next week) and I tried to resist (yeah, bad idea). Wrist broke. Yes, It hurt, but didn't end the fight. Big joints would probibly be worse. Take it for what it's worth.

My bottom line feeling on them...they're a useful tool with limitations. It's in situations where limb control is imparitaive (such as weapons defenses) that they really come into their own.

[bushido_man96]

Using diminishing techniques prior to the joint lock is something we do a lot of in Combat Hapkido. It helps to get the attackers mind on something other than the area that you are trying to lock up.

[Bushido-Ruach]

I like wristlocks and armlocks, but as noted here earlier, they can be hard to maintain once in the locked position. The reason I like them, besides the actual locking, is what the author of the thread first talked about, that is, using them for breaks. If an individual is bigger or stronger than I am, so that I can't maintain the lock, you are already 85% of the way into the break....so break it (if circumstances dictate such an action).

Locks are good for control if you CAN control the person with them (a big problem in law enforcement, as you can well guess), but if you are losing control and eminant danger still exists, breaking the wrist or arm is a good way to send the message that you mean to protect yourself at any cost.

[tallgeese]

Have to to a quick addendum here. That's probibly what I get for just skimming ealier posts.

I think the term joint lock is a bit of a misnomer, espically when it comes to wrist locks. They're not locks at all. They are intended to be breaking manuvers. I'm not saying that they can't be used as pain compliance tools but primarily their function is to destroy a joint so that appendage can no longer be used agaist you.

Therefore, I try never to utlize them in a way that would call for them to do something that they are not intended to. I can honestly say, I've never put a guy on the ground with a wrist lock. Arm bars, destablizing movments, sweeps, yes. But the small joint locking is much more useful as a destruction than anything else. That's why they function so well with weapons defenses. You establish control on the wrist and subsequently break it to remove the weapon from the fight, maybe even conduct a disarm.

I think trying to hold someone in place with a wrist lock is asking for trouble. Better to move to a differnent set of skills or disengage altogether.

[bushido_man96]

I think the term joint lock is a bit of a misnomer, espically when it comes to wrist locks. They're not locks at all. They are intended to be breaking manuvers. I'm not saying that they can't be used as pain compliance tools but primarily their function is to destroy a joint so that appendage can no longer be used agaist you.

Therefore, I try never to utlize them in a way that would call for them to do something that they are not intended to. I can honestly say, I've never put a guy on the ground with a wrist lock. Arm bars, destablizing movments, sweeps, yes. But the small joint locking is much more useful as a destruction than anything else. That's why they function so well with weapons defenses. You establish control on the wrist and subsequently break it to remove the weapon from the fight, maybe even conduct a disarm.

These are interesting points. I don't usually think of the mindset of breaking; I usually think control, and then break if need be. But, as was mentioned, justification is the big issue. If someone is that much bigger than you are, then you can probably justify it.

One thing that wrist locks (sorry for using the term you don't like ) tend to work for are taking people down. Twist the hand into a kotegashi type move, and take the palm of the hand and put it on the ground. If they don't go down, and it breaks, then it is because they resisted and didn't listen to instructions (go to the ground, etc).

[bushido_man96]

Locks are good for control if you CAN control the person with them (a big problem in law enforcement, as you can well guess), but if you are losing control and eminant danger still exists, breaking the wrist or arm is a good way to send the message that you mean to protect yourself at any cost.

One of the nice things about using these controls in a Law Enforcement setting is that an officer almost always has assistance by other officers. It takes the level of success up a notch or 10.