Is BJJ defensive; does Wrestling seem offensive?

[ShoriKid]

I think wrestlings agressive push for activity comes in large part from the time limit. Wrestlers are working against the clock for every point, and for the pin. Now wrestling is just as defensive as BJJ, in a different aspect. In defending against going to the ground, wrestling offers the best defense. The clinch work, sprawl work and the over all balance and sensitivity that good wrestlers develope is just amazing.

BJJ has time limits in copetition, but they are much longer. And while some would say that it should lead to greater conditioning like a wrestler, the pacing is completely different. There isn't so much of a push to get things done and get on with the day. More time means things can slow down and you can play the chess game.

Now is BJJ more self defense related than wrestling? Depends. A great deal of it depends on the person learning and the teaching going on. Sure, BJJ has the easiest transition for many, but if you want to look at the history of the art, BJJ comes from a sport version of a combat art. It was developed and refined in competion. It was different than the competion that built Judo, it's parent, or wrestling, but Helio was in the ring, looking at what worked. Wrestling was an art of war during the Greek period. Sure, it was part of the original Olympics. So was Pankration, discus and hammer throws. All of those were war related skills. According to Plato wrestling was an esential art for a soldier. He should know. Just like any citizen of Athens he served for 40 years as a hoplite and saw action in a few larger battles. Wrestling coaches will tell their boys to apply certain moves in a very particular manner. Otherwise they are locking a joint, or in danger of damaging someone as they crank something into place. In freestyle wrestling competition, a head lock has to have an arm in it to protect the neck. A knee has to hit down before a slam or fireman's carry type throw. A lot of protective measures are there to keep someone from being hurt who knows what's going on and is landing on mats.

ying & yang, one of two things is apparent in your comments. You have either vasty over estimated your ability or vasty under estimated Randy Couture's. This is a man who, despite his age, is still able to compete with fighters half his age, and win. Shortly before his return to the UFC he faced Jacare Cavalcanti in a grappling competition. Jacare did not even attempt to take Randy down, the match ending in a tie. Jacare is a 5th degree black belt in BJJ and considered one of it's most experienced and dangerous competitors. This is just before he schooled Tim Sylvia, a man out weighing him by about 40lbs and having 5 to 6 inches in height advantages. He then went on to defeat Gabriel Gonzaga, a much younger and larger BJJ black belt. The man is a very skilled grappler and fighter, with tons of experience. Your telling everyone here you could beat this man 80% of the time?

[yingampyang]

Everyone is entiltled to their own opinion. And what has been said i believed very much soo and i would be on your side if we had this talk say 3 years back. But i have seen some crazy things that people can do with martial arts. People that we dont know anything about , these types of people dont go to school they learn through their famlies and train together in a very closely connected way, which some how dont ask me how because i dont know makes them stronger and quicker than you could imagine.

You also have to remember that in UFC there are rules and in touraments their are rules. In REAL LIFE there are no rules. When i see a tourament i see it as practicing for thr real thing. And over in the isloated asian counrties there are people that have killed with their bare hands to survive , and are exsperts in every sense of the word MARTIAL ARTS.

Now when i say i can beat "randy", i only say this because i am someone who is very deticated to martial arts and i belive in my skill very much so, and know excatly what im capable of. And i garante that i have either the same or more experience as randy" , but i decided to take a different road.

[Treebranch]

There's alot of hero worship going on here. Just because Randy Couture was a wrestler and he is great, doesn't mean wrestlling is the best form of fighting. Look at St Pierre...he beat the snot out a wrestler twice and could keep doing it if they keep fighting. These fighters are at the top of their game, but they don't represent all their enthusiasts. All I have to say is that if I'm in the ring with a cage fighter, I'll do OK. He'll probably end up winning. On the street you can bet I'll play dumb and trick him into making some serious mistakes. It's not that these fighters can't defend themselves on the street, but it's hard to throw high kicks in a confined space. Shooting in can be tough too. The clinch leaves you open to be stabbed and so does going to the ground right away. I personally love UFC and good cage fighting in general, but I know the difference between Sport and Reality. If you find yourself defending yourself on the street and you really hurt someone. The cops are going to question you. Just say "I was in fear for my life", which may or may not be true. Keep training, keep an open mind and you will learn. All MA's have something to offer. Don't close your mind to TMA's. If you are a true Martial Artist you can use techniques from many styles to help give you an edge in the ring. THINK OUTSIDE OF THE CAGE.

[bushido_man96]

Too many people hide behind the whole, "tournaments are a waste of time" or "demonstrations of your skill are not honorable" scheme. This is just a way to make sure no one has the opportunity to knock them off their throne. Tournaments and other competitive events may not test every faction of martial arts prowess...but they are certainly better than doing nothing more than drilling technique day in and day out with no validation of the techniques. A person needs to be put under stress, with adrenaline pumping, and the actual fear of being defeated. This will teach them to think and act under pressure. That's what competition helps to accomplish.

I agree. The reason that competitions like with Wrestling, Judo, and even BJJ are around is because there is a natural tendency for man to want to test his strength, skill, and physical abilities against another man (or woman ). I don't think that there is anyone around here claiming that cage fighters are the best fighters in the world, bar-none. I haven't seen any real "hero worship" going on. Everyone has a bias, there is no doubt about that. However, I don't see any proponents of "this is better than that" at this point going on.

[pittbullJudoka]

Everyone has made some good points on this topic. But in my opinion Randy, if faced with defending himself on the street I can't see him trying take downs or anything of that nature. He would be like the rest of us on here and clear himself of the threat as quick as possible. I know if faced in a self defence situation you want to get out of dodge and fast as possible. Any cage fighter I would think is intelligent enough to know there are no rules on the street.

[Rainbow_Warrior]

If randy wanted to kick my crap , and I dont have to protect anybody.I´d run.

Im not a coward guy....but I know my limits. I would only face a guy like him in an extreme situation....( ie : he wanna take my girlfriend ,hit a relative , etc)

I´d run because

1) He waaaay is stronger

2) He is faster

3)He has more endurance.

4)His life is a fight , and he fights for the bread.

5)He waay is heavier and bigger

6) He has a stronger chin

7)He has ultimate wrestling skills

He fought the same number of times I breath.

9) My face is ugly...but It could be worst.

[ravenzoom]

treebranch wrote:

Look at St Pierre...he beat the snot out a wrestler twice and could keep doing it if they keep fighting.

What many people don't realize is that St-Pierre is a better wrestler than most of these guys, he trains with olympic level wrestlers here in Montreal (many of these wrestlers are from europe). St-Pierre was on the brink of the olympic try-outs if the Hughes-St-Pierre fight didn't happen. So he is a great wrestler.

As for ying yang, I'm not saying it can't be true, but beating Couture 8 times out of 10 seems far-fetched. This guy is a proven warrior who can take a punch. I know the streets is different, but in my opinion couture's strategy wouldn't be all that different than in a cage. Take you down and beat you (one on one). These guys have talent, experience, and toughness. These three factors can overcome many 'street lethal techniques' that they may not be aware of. But as I said before, anything is possible...although I strongly doubt it.

[bushido_man96]

I think that most of these cage fighters we are talking about have probably been in a scrap or two on the street at some point or another anyway.

Look at Kimbo Slice. This guy is a noted street fighter, and this time, is trying to make his way up the ranks in MMA. He is big, and is in good shape. However, he has to work at the MMA game a bit more. Does that mean that he couldn't take the top MMA dogs on the street? No. But, it doesn't mean that they couldn't take him, either.

I didn't know that about St. Pierre. Thanks for the info. I do like to watch him fight, when I get the chance.

[pittbullJudoka]

I´d run because

1) He waaaay is stronger

2) He is faster

3)He has more endurance.

4)His life is a fight , and he fights for the bread.

5)He waay is heavier and bigger

6) He has a stronger chin

7)He has ultimate wrestling skills

He fought the same number of times I breath.

9) My face is ugly...but It could be worst.

LOL. All I can say is I'm with you on this one. But to who ever is with me in a situation like this one, better be able to run like the wind cause I'm gonna be gone like the wind.

[Treebranch]

Missing the point. Just because someone is a great fighter doesn't mean that their MA of choice is the best. I just think pure wrestling isn't enough. BJJ has it all for the ground that is. BJJer's just need to practice more takedowns. A hybrid of the two would be ideal.

I wouldn't fight any of those champion fighters and they wouldn't waste their time with me anyway. I'll roll with anyone. I have no pride when it comes to learning.