"Poison Hand" Styles

[Johnlogic121]

Martial arts are practiced at all different ranges of speed. The slowest speeds in actual execution come from Tai Chi boxers who deliberately crawl through certain sections of their push hands practice before exploding with blazing power to drive someone off balance and onto the ground. Faster styles might execute one move per second as a typical speed. Most Okinawon and Japanese Katas have sixty movements so that they can be executed in one minute, for example. Faster speeds are possible in which people move as quickly as two attacks or two moves per second. Some practitioners emphsize speed and rythym with their sixty move katas and do them in 30 to 45 seconds, for example. Yet even faster human speeds are possible, up to a point. At a certain limit, a little bit faster than the movements of Bruce Lee, the human body itself begins to break down from moving too fast. Styles that emphasize efficient body dynamics can be called "poison hand" styles if there are times when danger can drive the martial artist to move so quickly that he damages his soft tissues. The only solution is to deliberately moderate speed and go slow enough that the soft tissue damage doesn't occur. Many martial artists practice "chain punching" drills where they punch repeatedly for as long as they can endure the exercise; this is an old karate drill. The fastest speed artists can hit between 11 to 20 times a second with short range punches that smash and sting more than they tap the surface of the body. However, speed artists can "hit the wall" for what the human body can endure and end up with soft tissue damage. There is a thrill to high speed because it tends to help people win, but too much is downright painful. This phenomenon isn't widely known because not too many common people encounter speeds as fast as Bruce Lee, but it is something to be aware of for people who cultivate mastery. What are your thoughts?

[yingampyang]

Speeds like bruce lee can be achieved simply by training , i dont mean to brag but i think ive become as quick or very close to the speeds that bruce was doing back in the day. But speed can also be a negative , so there should be a balance between speed and power.

As for doing kata's at high speeds i think its stupid because you should learn every single movement well before even trying to go faster.

[The BB of C]

There can be a balance between speed and power just from being fast. In basic physics, speed = mass. Something my teacher told me "I could throw a 22 shell at you and you wouldn't feel it. But if I put it in a gun and launch it at you at 320 yards per second, it does damage."

There's also the balance of speed and power by being just as quick as you are fast.

That'd be cool if you got to be that fast, but don't forget about how fast Bruce Lee was able to make very wide, sweeping movements. He also wasn't always going as fast as he could in movies. During filming of "Enter the Dragon", they had to ask him to slow down because the camera couldn't pick up his movements.

[NightOwl]

Actually, tai chi forms originally were performed usually at a fast pace, however time has generally changed the original purpose of the art. Also, the human body doesn't fall apart at high speeds- although scientists originally were afraid that it did....when they were test piloting the first planes to break the sound barrier. Happily, it was found that even going faster than sound, the human body will not explode. Poison hand usually is not used to refer to styles that make people go so fast that they hurt themselves, but rather is used as a English word for the controversial 'dim mak'.

[bushido_man96]

I had not head of the "poison hand" before. I would think that as long as you can keep your joints from hyperextending when locking the movements, that any excess speed would not hurt the body. As with anything, proper training is important.

[ps1]

I had not heard of the "poison hand" before. I would think that as long as you can keep your joints from hyperextending when locking the movements, that any excess speed would not hurt the body. As with anything, proper training is important.

My Chuan Fa training has some poison hand techniques. However, they had nothing to do with speed. They had more to do with deception and slight of hand. The idea was to use a concealed weapon (usually an eye irritant) in order to blind or temporarily disable an opponent. It was similar to the idea of throwing sand in the eyes of your opponent. The story goes that the monks would conceal the irritants in their robes as a method of quick self defense.

As far as excess speed. The main things you would have to worry about are similar to any other athlete. Tendonitis, torn muscles and strained ligaments. Proper martial arts training in combination with a good workout regimine can limit these problems.

[Zaine]

I'm not sure if this is true. Do you have proof?

Not to be argumentative or anything. Just curious.

[ps1]

the human body itself begins to break down from moving too fast.

I'm not sure if this is true. Do you have proof?

Not to be argumentative or anything. Just curious.

Actually it doesn't "break down" per say. Repetitive, fast, and explosive movements can cause overuse injuries when performed too often or over a long period of time. This is where you get injuries such as tennis elbow (which is essentially tendonitis) and other sports related ailments. But it's not as though you're going to disintegrate or anything.

If you take the time to properly condition your body, as Bruce Lee did, you are less likely to suffer from some of those problems. But let's not forget that Lee died at 32 years old. He didn't exactly live long enough for us to see how his training methods would have held up over the long term.

[Johnlogic121]

The government uses Montgomery Style Karate and has documented thousands of cases of soft tissue injuries from people who moved too quickly when executing the efficient routines of this style. The soft tissue injuries have been linked to simply moving too fast during efficient transitions, and these injuries can be reduplicated under laboratory conditions. Hence, all Montgomery Style Karate practitioners now keep to a speed of two moves per second or slower during training. At slower speeds, the soft tissue injuries don't occur.

[bushido_man96]

I don't really buy into that. I think that hyperextensions may be occurring, causing injuries to joints and the like. If the practitioners are inexperienced, lack of proper technique could be a contributor as well.

What kind of training do you do in your style that allows all of your practitioners to perform 2 techniques per second? Every practitioner in your style can do this? They all must have high levels of fast twitch muscle fibers.