Seniority

[NightOwl]

I think a good part of the problem has to do with:

A: A fanatical devotion to the senpai system.

As I saw noted once in an excellent editorial from an excellent site (http://www.24fightingchickens.com), the Japanese applied many of their own cultural aspects to baseball (to the point where they created a word in japanese for it). However in the west, we did the opposite and tend to treat the cultural trappings of the eastern martial arts as sacred cows that shouldn't be questioned by dirty gaijin. Don't get me wrong- I do value respecting elders/being polite, however to enforce a feudal system just seems...unAmerican (I SUPPOSE I can include our European friends as well ). Also since the senpai system is not native to the west, I feel that it tends to get especially exaggerated. We aren't a Confucian based society- I don't necessarily think we should be. On a visit to the Kendo club at my school (keep in mind school clubs can be very strict), everyone was pretty casual with me. While talking with one fellow, someone mentioned to him that I was a junior, which was a year above him (I look young). Suddenly his entire tone changed and he apologized and started speaking in keigo (extra polite japanese used for talking to superiors). I told him that he didn't need to (partially because of my rotten keigo skills) and he seemed relived and the following conversation was much more organic. I don't think that culture of distancing two people is very healthy, especially in a learning enviroment.

B: Making more out of bowing than it really is.

A bow can be a submissive and humble position, it is true. At the kodokan we do a seiza bow to the instructors and our fellow students at the end of class (although this has more to do with an expression of gratitude and mutual respect for students than anything else). However the constant bowing in eastern martial arts has a good deal to do with standard greetings as opposed to submissiveness. However in the west, a bow is something usually reserved to show reverence or submissiveness. Thus when many instructors see the bowing, they think, 'Ah, this is humbling yourself by showing respect and boy howdy is it building up character'. However a bow doesn't mean necessarily mean respect- it is just done as an integrated part of life. Thus you can see how things were lost in translation, and the quest to drive more 'respect' into people can lead to things being over emphasized.

C: Power corrupts

Let's face it- studies as well as history has proven that power over others can lead to said power being abused. While it would be nice to believe that this is uncommon in the martial arts world with its often self proclaimed culture of 'respect', said 'respect' is often used to boot egos and boss around others. Many times, just an instructor telling a student that they are being' disrespectful' can be used to shut out questions and critisim- it's almost akin to being called a 'communist' in 1950's America or 'Bolshevik' in pretty much any communist country (or a witch

).

So am I saying that any mention of rank, or the very notion of being more skilled than someone is bad? By no means. However as with all things, moderation is the key.

[Zanshin]

Wow. I never realized this was an issue in some schools. Of course I've seen the kids do it. But never the adults. It's always gone in order of rank and time. It's always been well known who is the higher or more senior rank. If I was ever in doubt...I just went made sure there was plenty of room for people to get "ahead" of me in line. Then, if no one took up the space, I would just close it up when it was time to bow in. But this was only an issue at seminars where I may not have known everyone.

yes, i dont know what it is, something in the water or whatever, but theres about a half a dozen black belts who are regularly there who regularly make higher ranks very angry. i just hope its a phase, im quite sick of it. although i thought there'd be problems in other schools, now it makes me feel like im surrounded by ego-maniacs

It is a cyclical thing:

First dans feel they have arrived and think they know it all. They will say they don’t of course.

Second dans have an "Invincibility" issue and the grade is often referred to as the "power" grade. They are obviously a cut above shodan... or so they think.

Third dans begin to realise that they know less than thought and begin to look introspectively.

Fourth dans slowly begin to get it.

That’s why in many associations the title of sensei or teacher is reserved for 3rd dans and above, and even then it may be too soon.

Unfortunately people get consumed by the whole grade and black belt thing.

Although classical budo has no grades (only titles) I think it is fair to say that the students graded up to and including 3rd dan in modern gendai arts are the equivalent (in "Koryu" schools) of what would be referred to as "Shoden" or beginner stage.

So really these guys that are fighting each other for position are only beginners and given time they may realise the folly of their ways.

That said, in many ways, whilst the grade/belt system has some great qualities, it can also create a monster in some dojos.

Mr Kano has a lot to be proud of, but also a lot to answer for lol.

[brokenswordx]

I've been informed that 2 brown belts have passed the test to become black belts. I was surprised that one of the guys passed becuase he seemed lax at practice and would rather goof off than train. Even though I may not like the person of a high rank, I don't disrespect them. I do keep my distance from them...

[bushido_man96]

I have a good friend who is the #2 man in his system of karate (at 7th Dan). He teaches & has his students simply call him, "sensei" rather than shihan or other such terms. He has an interesting take on a lot of folks who like to lord their rank over others.

He really feels (& I've often found this to be true) that folks that lord their rank & position on the mat over others often have nowhere jobs &/or otherwise just feel lousy about themselves outside the training hall. So, the training hall is that one place where they are "important" in any way.

WOW. now that i think about the people we're having difficulty with, you are right on the mark. they all feel inferior in some other part of their life, that a black belt makes them feel on top of the world, wow, you are absolutely right

I think that this is a step in the right direction. Somehow, it is those looking for a power trip. We have had a few in our school that have had instant adjustments once they got their black belts, especially to some of the other, lower ranked students. However, they haven't ever approached me in such a way. I think part of it is because I have rank over them, and they wouldn't want that on their heads. However, they have pulled it on one of the black belts below me. What I don't think they realize is that I don't ask or require the same actions of others. As far as I'm concerned, I don't care who bows to me when I come into the school.

[bushido_man96]

I think a good part of the problem has to do with:

A: A fanatical devotion to the senpai system.

As I saw noted once in an excellent editorial from an excellent site (http://www.24fightingchickens.com), the Japanese applied many of their own cultural aspects to baseball (to the point where they created a word in japanese for it). However in the west, we did the opposite and tend to treat the cultural trappings of the eastern martial arts as sacred cows that shouldn't be questioned by dirty gaijin. Don't get me wrong- I do value respecting elders/being polite, however to enforce a feudal system just seems...unAmerican (I SUPPOSE I can include our European friends as well ). Also since the senpai system is not native to the west, I feel that it tends to get especially exaggerated. We aren't a Confucian based society- I don't necessarily think we should be. On a visit to the Kendo club at my school (keep in mind school clubs can be very strict), everyone was pretty casual with me. While talking with one fellow, someone mentioned to him that I was a junior, which was a year above him (I look young). Suddenly his entire tone changed and he apologized and started speaking in keigo (extra polite japanese used for talking to superiors). I told him that he didn't need to (partially because of my rotten keigo skills) and he seemed relived and the following conversation was much more organic. I don't think that culture of distancing two people is very healthy, especially in a learning enviroment.

I think that this is a very good point. In one respect, I think that the lack of these qualities is one of the things that is great about BJJ gyms. You don't see bowing, no "yes sir, no sir" going on. It is very casual. That is the nature of our society, and we should not have to worry about trying to adhere to cultural norms of a country that lies an ocean away.

[NewEnglands_KyoSa]

does anybody have titles among black belts, or something other than physical rank among black belts?

[IcemanSK]

does anybody have titles among black belts, or something other than physical rank among black belts?

Yes. In my organization there is:

Assistant Instructor. Usually only 1st Dan

Instructor. At 2nd Dan (although some 1st are eligible for it)

Head Instructor (need to be teaching a black belt)

Chief Instructor (3rd Dan, teaching an instructor &/or teaching at 2 or more schools)

Assistant Master (4th Dan. Usually for those who just want to train, rather than teach.)

Master. 4th Dan (training head or chief instructors)

Master Instructor. 5th Dan (similar requirements)

Chief Master. 6th Dan (similar requirements)

Professor. 7th Dan (similar requirements)

Grandmaster. 8th

Senior Grandmaster. 9th

Someone above said something about different ranks of black belt having different issues. My GM is fond of saying that 3rd Dans ask the most questions. Well, at least that's what he says to me.

[NewEnglands_KyoSa]

does anybody have titles among black belts, or something other than physical rank among black belts?

Yes. In my organization there is:

Assistant Instructor. Usually only 1st Dan

Instructor. At 2nd Dan (although some 1st are eligible for it)

Head Instructor (need to be teaching a black belt)

Chief Instructor (3rd Dan, teaching an instructor &/or teaching at 2 or more schools)

Assistant Master (4th Dan. Usually for those who just want to train, rather than teach.)

Master. 4th Dan (training head or chief instructors)

Master Instructor. 5th Dan (similar requirements)

Chief Master. 6th Dan (similar requirements)

Professor. 7th Dan (similar requirements)

Grandmaster. 8th

Senior Grandmaster. 9th

Someone above said something about different ranks of black belt having different issues. My GM is fond of saying that 3rd Dans ask the most questions. Well, at least that's what he says to me.

wow thats alot of titles, good God, if you don't mind how do you earn them, do you have to test or are they given to you when you meet the requirements and when you are ready?

[IcemanSK]

does anybody have titles among black belts, or something other than physical rank among black belts?

Yes. In my organization there is:

Assistant Instructor. Usually only 1st Dan

Instructor. At 2nd Dan (although some 1st are eligible for it)

Head Instructor (need to be teaching a black belt)

Chief Instructor (3rd Dan, teaching an instructor &/or teaching at 2 or more schools)

Assistant Master (4th Dan. Usually for those who just want to train, rather than teach.)

Master. 4th Dan (training head or chief instructors)

Master Instructor. 5th Dan (similar requirements)

Chief Master. 6th Dan (similar requirements)

Professor. 7th Dan (similar requirements)

Grandmaster. 8th

Senior Grandmaster. 9th

Someone above said something about different ranks of black belt having different issues. My GM is fond of saying that 3rd Dans ask the most questions. Well, at least that's what he says to me.

wow thats alot of titles, good God, if you don't mind how do you earn them, do you have to test or are they given to you when you meet the requirements and when you are ready?

One must test for the belt rank like always; but the rank instructor rank one must only meet the requirements. (for example, One can be a 4th Dan, but wouldn't be considered a full master if they don't have at least head instructor ranked students.

[bushido_man96]

does anybody have titles among black belts, or something other than physical rank among black belts?

3rd Dan, receive Instructor Certification.

4th Dan, title of Jr. Master.

5th Dan, title of Master...must also be teaching to be eligible to test for this rank.