Anyone here familiar with Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu?

[NightOwl]

Hey no problem- and again I want to reiterate that by no means am I saying that you shouldn't check it out. Let us know how it goes, and if you like it try it for a bit.

[Geminias]

Sensei Nash just e-mailed me back. He isn't aware of any Wado clubs in this area. He did recommend a traditional karate dojo in Cincy but it's a little too far away to be practical. Looks like I'll be training in a new system. Oh well, I'm only 5th kyu anyway. It's not like I'm preparing for my black belt test or something. Variety's the spice of life, isn't it?

If you're coming to cincinnati, I'd highly recommend stopping by Holley Sensei's dojo. He teaches shotokan karate, and he's very good.

[ps1]

Personally, my conclusions lead me to believe that it is not real (as far as lineage and the ninja angle goes). For just an example, Hatsumi claims to be the 34th soke of the art, however the oldest known martial arts systems in japan (such as Katori-Shinto-ryu and Kashima-Shinryu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Koryu_bujutsu) are only on their 20th generation respectively.

Is it possible that many of the Soke before him died earlier than anticipated? I don't find this too difficult to believe. Afterall, the warrior class came to power in Japan during the Heian period (794-1185). It's reasonable to believe this is also the period when espionage units would have begun to be used. That's around 1000 years to go through 34 soke in the 9 ryu that combined to make up the bujinkan. The timelines seem reasonable to me.

My argument is based solely on speculation. I admit I'm not well read when it comes to ninpo. What period does Hatsumi claim it orginated? I do find it interesting, however, that Hatsumi's art was not accepted as a traditional Ryu.

Here's a website interview with Steven K Hayes that talks a little more about the reformation of Ninjitsu to Bujinkan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T50WRzzbhlY

[NightOwl]

Personally, my conclusions lead me to believe that it is not real (as far as lineage and the ninja angle goes). For just an example, Hatsumi claims to be the 34th soke of the art, however the oldest known martial arts systems in japan (such as Katori-Shinto-ryu and Kashima-Shinryu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Koryu_bujutsu) are only on their 20th generation respectively.

Is it possible that many of the Soke before him died earlier than anticipated? I don't find this too difficult to believe. Afterall, the warrior class came to power in Japan during the Heian period (794-1185). It's reasonable to believe this is also the period when espionage units would have begun to be used. That's around 1000 years to go through 34 soke in the 9 ryu that combined to make up the bujinkan. The timelines seem reasonable to me.

My argument is based solely on speculation. I admit I'm not well read when it comes to ninpo. What period does Hatsumi claim it orginated? I do find it interesting, however, that Hatsumi's art was not accepted as a traditional Ryu.

Here's a website interview with Steven K Hayes that talks a little more about the reformation of Ninjitsu to Bujinkan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T50WRzzbhlY

Except that one of the oldest martial arts schools in Japan has a starting date of as late as around 1480 making it only 500 years old or so. This was also the time when organized martial arts schools started in Japan (before hand there were no sokes since to be a soke of a system you have to have an organized system in the first place). The Bujinkan claims a starting date in one of its systems (Shinden Fudo-ryu) to the mid 11th century- making it almost 400 years older than the oldest known martial arts school in japan. A very lofty claim.

As for Hayes- he was a member of the earlier Bujinkan days before splitting off and selling the ninja angle in the US to great effect. He has written books giving a VERY detailed history of ninjitsu- try reading these off to any historian of Japanese history and you will at best get a blank stare. On a side note, the husband of my girlfriend's elderly friend (sorry for the many connections there) is a well respected Japanese History professor whom I plan to reference on a report on the origins of ninja mythology. Also I am working on a minor in Asian history so I'm not in a bubble on things.

And yes, it is not accepted as Koryu which is very significant. There are two major organizations which do investigations for official Koryu recognition- Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai and the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai. These are not groups of random JJJ students or rival Koga ninjas, but a very serious historical research groups in which you will see both doctorates and every member with a heavy dedication to the martial arts (many of whom have significant training experience). To be accepted, you must have your lineage claims as well as any documentation examined by a panel of experts. Hatsumi makes no secret that he claims to have scrolls backing up the system- however from what I have heard he keeps a very tight control on them and refuses to let them be examined out of his sight. Anyways he did apply to the Kobudo Shinkokai but upon examination the documents could not be shown to have been created before at the most as early as the turn of the century and he was denied koryu status.

Finally I would like to again emphasize that it isn't taken very well inside of its home country. Major classical martial arts demonstrations have turned it down, as well as demographically speaking you find few Japanese members. It can contribute a great deal to its success in fact, to the efforts of Hayes in the United States.

Again, please do look into it (I have participated in a Bujinkan lesson before myself). If you like it, give it a go. But from what I have heard and studied it is a system started by Takamatsu and tweaked by Hatsumi derived from their own various martial arts training and individual creation. There are plenty of modern styles- modern doesn't mean bad...

[NightOwl]

One last thing- the bujinkan does contain koryu techniques. Both Hatsumi and the founder practiced in koryu schools and Hatsumi was supposedly a high ranking judoka. So in that sense you are learning koryu, but it is a modern system. Then again, MMA contains moves that can be traced back to koryu (like the triangle choke), so...

[battousai16]

for what it's worth, i spent a few days in this system and i loved it. i can't speak for how old it is, but my teacher was very knowledgeable and down to earth, and stressed character development as much as anything. the style its self covered a wide range of fighting and it was probably the single cheapest school in the area. the only reason i stopped going is because it was really far away, and gas prices were creeping up. i don't know much about lineage, or even consistency from school to school, but if yours is anyone like mine i definitely suggest checking it out.