Does Wado Ryu have a lot of Ju Jitsu in it?

[Wa-No-Michi]

can I be contriversial and suggest that the power generated in this move would be far greater at 45 degree angle ane that the effect on the attacker who be far greater at 45 degree angke

Hi wouldbemaster,

I see you are a Wado-ka, what grade are you and have you practiced Kihon Kumite yet?

If you have, chances are you are familiar with the workings of them and the principles of Nagashi.

My understanding is that the word Nagashi refers to the flow of a stream and its movement around a solid object (ie a rock?) found in its path. It can't push it away, so finds a close natural flow around it whilst always staying on its intended course.

In other words, it is allowing the "unstoppable" forward energy of an opponent’s attack to take its course, evading this with the minimum of movement and then using the attackers (continuing) forward moving inertia, to add to the kinetic energy of a counter strike. Literally using your opponent’s energy against them.

The tighter the angle the greater amount of force is created. 45 deg angle you have effectively halved the potential. Plus added a greater amount of distance that needs to be travelled... too slow.

Ask you sensei about “san-mi-ittai”... too difficult (or pointless) to explain here, but if you need help you can pm me.

Just my two-pence worth.

WNM

[wouldbemaster]

Understand the principles you are discussing. Bottom line is it coulds down to the attack as to the best defence and the counter attack you are looking to achieve. I apologise if you comments came out as the only answer. I my experience for this attack the utilisation ofthe 45 degree angle ha the most useful reaction in terms of positioning for nex6t move and leaving your attacker at the best disadvantage.

As you asked 4th dan with around 25 years wado experience but always open to suggestions from sensei or day one karateka. I can learn from all and it is up to me to decide whether they are right or not.

What grade are you and where do you train?

[Wa-No-Michi]

Hi wouldbemaster,

On reflection, the way I phrased the opening part of my last post comes across a little rude. I should not have brought grade into it (if only for the reason that it is irrelevant compared to experience), it was just my clumsy attempt to establish whether you had trained in Kihon Kumite / Kumite Gata - as a way to help the discussion point along - particularly when you consider there are limited Wado-ka who contribute to this board.

I think the question was asked about stance, I said I thought it looked liked Kumite Gata type of movement similar to KK #1 for which the stance is Seishan-dachi "ish". (Or at least Suzuki Sensei suggests it is this stance and for the lack of another name it seems to work for me).

As for the directionality of the movement - if we take the second move that Tori performs in KK#1 for example, I see the embusen as a "flattened triangle"

Is this similar to the movement you would train in?

WNM

[wouldbemaster]

Looking at KK1 I agree I was always taught Seishan-Dachi as initially. Key point I think is around application and use of nagashi. In this case we are flowing with the attack on both the initial block and the following block/punch combination, when I was suggesting the 45 degree angle it was in turning from facing to turning to 45 degree so you are attacking against the weak angle against stance of attacker to maximise the impact utilising centre of gravity both theirs and yours.

Yours in Wado

[Wa-No-Michi]

Looking at KK1 I agree I was always taught Seishan-Dachi as initially. Key point I think is around application and use of nagashi. In this case we are flowing with the attack on both the initial block and the following block/punch combination, when I was suggesting the 45 degree angle it was in turning from facing to turning to 45 degree so you are attacking against the weak angle against stance of attacker to maximise the impact utilising centre of gravity both theirs and yours.

Hi wouldbemaster,

I think I see what you are saying, but perhaps your reference to 45 degree would be better suited to describe the rotation angle the shoulders travel???

IE between the initial block (when we should have travelled "naname") into Shiko dachi (or at least I do anyway), and when we convert to the counter strike / parry combination (in Seishan Dachi).

I would say the the angle travelled by the shoulders was 45 deg ish..

Remember though there are no "actuals" in Wado

I hope that helps.

WNM

[wouldbemaster]

I agree nothing in life is fixed and all martial arts is about the application of principles not fixed techniques delivered in a fixed/forced manner.

[blackxpress]

As others have said, the Jujitsu is there but it's subtle. The school where I trained before I had to move away (dang it) taught a good bit of small circle jujitsu and a fair amount of ground fighting. The sensei was a retired LEO who had taught LE self defense. Most of that stuff was jujitsu based and he added it to his Wado curriculum. It fit together very well, by the way. Last I heard some of the other senseis in USEWF were interested in adding it to their curriculums as well. I don't think it's happened yet but I think it would be really cool if it did. Just another example of how an art tends to evolve over time.