Does Wado Ryu have a lot of Ju Jitsu in it?

[Zanshin]

Sensei,

I would love to become an Uchi Dechi at a Wado Ryu Dojo. I long to learn the Senior Kata from Kushanku, Naifanchi, Chinto etc.

Sometimes it is difficult being Shodan in Ashihara, with students of my own and to be a lower Kyu Grade in Wado (Green Belt). I have been advised in other styles (they are not Wado but are Japanese based styles) they would honour my grade and I would learn it through the years, but Wado Fills the Gap that I feel. Your thoughts on this one.

But I think, well I need to earn my Blackbelt the way I earned it in Ashihara.

Osu

Dobbersky,

I don’t think a Wado dojo would honour your grade just like I could not expect to start training in Ashihara without starting back at white belt.

As an experienced martial artist, you would probably show more "aptitude" towards it and progress more steadily than an absolute beginner in Karate and you are right, at the end of the day you need to feel that you have earned that Dan grade.

Wado is one of the more "complex" karate styles and not easy to master, but very rewarding when it slowly starts to slot into place.

Don’t get hung up on grade my friend, there will always be someone better than you no matter how black your belt is and keep training, it will come.

[Dobbersky]

Zanshin-sama

Thank you for you kind words and guidance. My apologies for my post, it seems to have come out incorrectly. Regards grades, my main concern is sometimes my Wado Sensei asks me to take the warm up which I do without question.

The only thing is I can tell some of the higher Kyu grades I feel resent (although this does seem a little too harsh) that they have not been asked.

My Wado Sensei says I am welcome to wear my Blackbelt but I prefer to wear the coloured belts for that grade with a black band around one end.

I do however every now and again wear my Blackbelt to class just to rekindle my level to the Kyu grades that haven't reached their Dan grade yet (mainly so they don't under estimate my level of skill in the realms of Sempai/Kohai and during Sparring). Although I do feel that respect and acceptance is reciprocated between the Dan Grades and from the Kyu Grades.

My main belief in Karate is that Shodan is exactly what it states 'First Step' I am not a belt chaser although I have study many styles but this was trying to find the arts that suit me best. I have settled with the 2 I train with, these I will train in for life.

One thing I can understand is that the belt doesn't make the KarateKa its the KarateKa that makes the belt.

I've wanted to train at home with my white belt on to see if it does change colour to become black your thoughts on this please.

Osu

[Zanshin]

Regards grades, my main concern is sometimes my Wado Sensei asks me to take the warm up which I do without question...The only thing is I can tell some of the higher Kyu grades I feel resent.(although this does seem a little too harsh) that they have not been asked.

Hi Dobbersky,

I should imagine that your Wado sensei asks you to take the warm up because you are an experienced Karate-ka more so than the Wado kyu grades. If they are resentfull of this then it is their problem not yours.

My Wado Sensei says I am welcome to wear my Blackbelt but I prefer to wear the coloured belts for that grade with a black band around one end.

Thats down to him, his house his rules. I will often allow kyu and Dan grade students from other Karate styles to train with their existing belts for a period of time, but eventually they should really be graded to to their correct wado standard. Usually this involves a significant downward shift in grade. We often have students start with us from other Wado groups and the same rule applies to them. Quite frankly I am a bit like your sensei by the sounds of it, in that I couldn't really care what colour belt someone wears. It's their Karate that counts.

I do however every now and again wear my Blackbelt to class just to rekindle my level to the Kyu grades that haven't reached their Dan grade yet (mainly so they don't under estimate my level of skill in the realms of Sempai/Kohai and during Sparring). Although I do feel that respect and acceptance is reciprocated between the Dan Grades and from the Kyu Grades.

With respect, thats an odd statement to make. On the one hand you are saying belt colour is not importatnt, but on the other, you want your Kohais to know that you are actually are better than them. I understand what you are saying about your ability being perhaps better than your grade (and therefore in sparring it is important that they are aware of this), but surely they will pick this up pretty quickly when you start fighting. Its your job as the more experienced martial artist to take your foot off the gas peddle a bit if you feel it is required.

Could this be why they you are picking up a feeling of resent from them?

One thing I can understand is that the belt doesn't make the KarateKa its the KarateKa that makes the belt.

Well maybe, but I like to think of it as being "its the karate-ka that makes the Karate"

I've wanted to train at home with my white belt on to see if it does change colour to become black your thoughts on this please.

Probably not a good idea as it will start to smell really bad long before it turns black

[gensei]

I would have to agree with Zanshin on most everything, though I would stress a bit more strongly that wearing of a blackbelt from another style should be done ONLY on express permission of the instructor. With all due respect, it could easily confuse students - especially if you have not yet become adept at Wado movement and technique.

Students will (consciously or unconsciously) look to the belt to show them a model for their improvement. If you do not exhibit shodan-level wado, I would discourage wearing a black-belt to a wado class for their sake.

in harmony,

TL

[Dobbersky]

Sensei, Sempai

I appreciate your honesty, It takes a good 'friend' to give you honest advice for you to 'see' the way forward

I understand, correct me if I'm wrong, I will forget what grade I am when I am training in Wado and just concentrate on the Karate

Osu

[Zanshin]

I would have to agree with Zanshin on most everything, though I would stress a bit more strongly that wearing of a blackbelt from another style should be done ONLY on express permission of the instructor. With all due respect, it could easily confuse students - especially if you have not yet become adept at Wado movement and technique.

Students will (consciously or unconsciously) look to the belt to show them a model for their improvement. If you do not exhibit shodan-level wado, I would discourage wearing a black-belt to a wado class for their sake.

in harmony,

TL

Yes gensei, I think you are right to stress this. Visitors from others styles can wear their BB if they want however in my experience most do not. If they want to train regularly/seriously in Wado, they would not wear their BBs.

You sum it up in a nutshell when you say "Wado movement". No other karate ka move quite the same way as a Wado ka, and for my money that’s why cross training in Wado and another form of Karate is going to be very hard, so really I think it’s all or nothing really.

Dobbersky - whilst I train hard and try to be true to my art, I am sensei in the dojo only and a reluctant one at that . Quite frankly people can call me what they want as long as it isn't rude.

On this board plain old Zanshin will do. Cheers anyway.

[jaedeshi]

- Nagasu, where we evade and/or deflect as we attack. We have a punch called nagashizuki, where we shift off the line of attack, and deflect the opponent's punch with our own punching motion.

This technique I have seen in styles of karate and never in any jujutsu styles. It probably a karate technique. Also I will say that its a technique that is probably not used or explored enough. Aside from learning the technique in a standard yakusoku (pre-arranged) kumite I never saw instructors teach it other than that.

[Zanshin]

- Nagasu, where we evade and/or deflect as we attack. We have a punch called nagashizuki, where we shift off the line of attack, and deflect the opponent's punch with our own punching motion.

This technique I have seen in styles of karate and never in any jujutsu styles. It probably a karate technique. Also I will say that its a technique that is probably not used or explored enough. Aside from learning the technique in a standard yakusoku (pre-arranged) kumite I never saw instructors teach it other than that.

Hi jaedeshi,

Nagashi-tsuki is a technique which is quite unique to Wado-Ryu karate (as I understand it). It literally means floating punch and has its origins in Kenjutsu / defence against the sword.

The correct application of the technique is very subtle, and probably best described as a turn sideways against and attack as opposed to "Taisabaki" (body shift off the line of attack) that most martial arts employ.

Nagashi-tsuki is commonly called “evasion punch” because of the way that it simultaneously “evades” an incoming technique whilst delivering a offensive counter strike.

The key to making the technique work is timing. This falls into the category of “Sen-no-Sen” or (vertually) simultaneous defence and attack.

[jaedeshi]

Hi jaedeshi,

Nagashi-tsuki is a technique which is quite unique to Wado-Ryu karate (as I understand it). It literally means floating punch and has its origins in Kenjutsu / defence against the sword.

The correct application of the technique is very subtle, and probably best described as a turn sideways against and attack as opposed to "Taisabaki" (body shift off the line of attack) that most martial arts employ.

Nagashi-tsuki is commonly called “evasion punch” because of the way that it simultaneously “evades” an incoming technique whilst delivering a offensive counter strike.

The key to making the technique work is timing. This falls into the category of “Sen-no-Sen” or (vertually) simultaneous defence and attack.

I seen and have done the technique in Matsubayashi-Ryu, its the third technique in the first yakusoku kumite. It can be seen Nagamine Shoshin's book "The Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do" pg 255. He doesn't give the technique any special name.

In Isshin Ryu I've done as part of their basic kihon techniques. It was practiced deflecting a middle punch at the same time as striking into the midsection. In Matsubayashi it was deflecting a face punch as you punched the opponents face.

I have seen students of Higaonna Morio of Goju Ryu use the technique in a video he produced many years ago. They used to the head and midsection. In the video there is no name given for the techniques. In his books though he does list a "nagashi-zuki" (flowing punch)in his terminology section.

In "Best Karate 2 Fundamentals" by Nakayama Masatoshi on pg's 120-121 the technique is done and 2 examples are given. Both deflecting a face punch. One deflecting/striking with another punch and the other with a spear hand. The technique is called hiji suri-uke (sliding elbow block) in that book. I don't find it surprising in Shotokan they use a different name as they changed all or most of the Okinawan karate terminology to Japanese. It is possible the that Ohtsuka learned the technique from Funakoshi. As well as learning it from jujutsu.

In western boxing I have read that a lead (left)jab used to deflect a right cross.

In a 2 person yamane ryu bo kata I seen the same technique done. Using the center part of the bo to deflect a bo thrust and using the end of the bo to strike at the face using the same motion.

In Silat I seen a form of this done. The attacker steps in to attack with a punch and the defender uses the block not only to deflect the strike but to also break the attacker's kuzushi (balance). You could change the focus of the blocking motion to strike. Being that the end result was to throw the block/attack technique was used to attack the opponents balance for a faster set up for the throw.

I have seen in some karate books the technique as described as block/attacking with the same motion. When we think of this in this manner we open up a world of different possibilities. As in the silat application, to attack we don't always have to strike. So we don't follow the same exact physical motion but we use the principle. To block and attack with the same motion. In Nakayama M. in his book "Best Karate 4 Kumite 2" pg.122I see the principle being applied using the mizu-nagare kamae (flowing water position).

Let me say that I seen this technique and have practiced in the way you described with no taisabaki to move the defender off the line of the attack. So we are talking about the same technique. This one of those situations where a technique was created at different times by different people in different places. As for the examples of the different karate styles having the same techniques I would venture to say that there was particular teacher that passed the technique to his students. His students then went to teach it in the new styles they then created.

I would like to ask in kenjutsu what is the technique called?

[Zanshin]

Hi jaedeshi.

I think it’s not so much deflecting an incoming technique, but more about moving the "seika tanden" just enough out of the line of attack and using the kinetic energy (forward motion) of your attacker to increase the effectiveness of the application.

In Itto-Ryu kenjutsu, I believe that the technique would be called "Uke-Nagashi". Although I am very much a junior in this, so will stand corrected.

Going back to your original point, Nagashi-tsuki is so fundamental to Wado that it is practiced as part of our Kihon waza, as well as in our yakusoku kumite. It can also be seen in many of the wado katas and is frequently practiced as “kaisetsu " or extraction of techniques from kata against an opponent.

If you are after a karate that employs this to its greatest effect then wado is the one.