The blurring of arts

[bushido_man96]

So...to answer your question, yes! There certainly is blurring. You should be able to adapt your skills seamlessly. Just keep in mind that your adaptations are possible because someone showed you the whole picture, not just their version of it. What often seperates the various martial systems is not the techniques used, rather the strategy with which they employ them.

Its the various ideas, strategies, and training methods that seem to make this impact in the end, I think. Even Judo and BJJ have many of the same moves, but different philosophies in employing them and in training.

Whether you end up with an "Irish stew" of techniques, or you study an extensive "traditional" system, the results will be whatever you make of them in the end. You can even make the self-defense seminar into your art; who says it has to be just a seminar? I get together with a group of fellow Martial Artists every week to do this, along with my TKD training.

If you want to look at the way one art applies a technique, and then at a different way that another art applies the same technique, then you get various perspectives, which is always good. However, you don't want to miss the forest for the trees.

[Zanshin]

Are you saying that martial arts are no good for self-defense?

.

No I am not, but in many cases you will get quicker results from a dedicated self defence system than a traditional martial art.

I think that an Irish Stew of martial arts, adjusted to one's own tastes (abilities, strengths, weaknesses) is exactly what I want.

And that’s fine, each to their own I suppose. I would question whether anyone, except those with a vast knowledge of martial arts and experience have the ability to successfully create their own style. Improve certain areas of their fighting skills yes, but not create a comprehensive system. But if what you are trying to do is improve for your own sake then there is no problem with what you are saying.

It’s when you see people who claim to have created "the most comprehensive fighting system ever" that just make me cringe.

Also, I have a feeling that years of training are going to teach me to react quicker, block and dodge faster, and attack better than a self defense seminar.

Of course you have, and if you train in a comprehensive system under a good instructor, you will achieve exactly that.

If you want to look at the way one art applies a technique, and then at a different way that another art applies the same technique, then you get various perspectives, which is always good. However, you don't want to miss the forest for the trees.

Which is pretty much what i said in my original post.

Don’t get me wrong, I am all for cross training, but for the right reasons i.e.; improvement of techniques, different approaches to training, gaining a better understanding (even if that only means seeing it from a different view point).

I understand though that everyone is different and we all have our own training goals. Life would be boring if we were all the same.

[bushido_man96]

I would question whether anyone, except those with a vast knowledge of martial arts and experience have the ability to successfully create their own style. Improve certain areas of their fighting skills yes, but not create a comprehensive system. But if what you are trying to do is improve for your own sake then there is no problem with what you are saying.

What are the requirements for creating a comprehensive system? What would "comprehensive" entail, exactly?

Don’t get me wrong, I am all for cross training, but for the right reasons i.e.; improvement of techniques, different approaches to training, gaining a better understanding (even if that only means seeing it from a different view point).

I agree with you here. But what would you say are the wrong reasons to cross-train?

[Zanshin]

What are the requirements for creating a comprehensive system? What would "comprehensive" entail, exactly?

I suppose the complete offer, where the principles could be applied to any number of pottentail scenarios. IE its not so much the techniques you use its the way you employ them. Also a complete system should have more to offer than just "Fighting". Through the study of it, there should be a natural by product of self improvement.

I agree with you here. But what would you say are the wrong reasons to cross-train?

The mistaken belief, that if you practice techniques from wide range of martial arts, (as opposed to studying a well established decent one), you will automatically make your self a better martial artist.

[bushido_man96]

What are the requirements for creating a comprehensive system? What would "comprehensive" entail, exactly?

I suppose the complete offer, where the principles could be applied to any number of pottentail scenarios. IE its not so much the techniques you use its the way you employ them. Also a complete system should have more to offer than just "Fighting". Through the study of it, there should be a natural by product of self improvement.

I see the point you are making here, but this is along the lines of what I like to refer to as the Eastern Bias. This is soley an implementation concentrated on in most of the Asian and other Far Eastern Martial Arts. Western styles never really concerned themselves with it to the extent that the Oriental styles did/do. Sure, there were some that claimed that the fighters should be gentlemen and such, but the "way of life" aspect of it wasn't a focal point like it is to Eastern styles. Therefore, I don't look at it as a major prerequisite for a system.

[The BB of C]

As far as Asia goes, a lot of Fillipino styles branched from Japanese styles. Japanese branched from Korean. Korean branched from Chinese and Mongolian. Chinese branched from India.

[Zanshin]

What are the requirements for creating a comprehensive system? What would "comprehensive" entail, exactly?

I suppose the complete offer, where the principles could be applied to any number of pottentail scenarios. IE its not so much the techniques you use its the way you employ them. Also a complete system should have more to offer than just "Fighting". Through the study of it, there should be a natural by product of self improvement.

I see the point you are making here, but this is along the lines of what I like to refer to as the Eastern Bias. This is soley an implementation concentrated on in most of the Asian and other Far Eastern Martial Arts. Western styles never really concerned themselves with it to the extent that the Oriental styles did/do. Sure, there were some that claimed that the fighters should be gentlemen and such, but the "way of life" aspect of it wasn't a focal point like it is to Eastern styles. Therefore, I don't look at it as a major prerequisite for a system.

I think I may have given you the wrong impression. The self improvement I was referring to was really more to do with improving things like your fitness, agility (mental and physical) and reflexes etc. I have been studying traditional Japanese MA for a few years now and to be quite honest I am not that bothered about the “spiritual enlightenment” that I may achieve through training. Some times I think that we in the west misinterpret the “do” or “way” side of martial arts too much along the humanitarian lines. Sure it has its values but it’s not really where I come from, (as it’s not with most of the Japanese Sensei that I train with).

To expand on the answer to your question about what makes a comprehensive system, I suppose the best reference I can give is that of Wado Ryu (as it's the style I have studied the most).

Otsuka Sensei (founder of Wado Ryu Karate) took the Kihon (Basic Techniques) and Kata (forms) of “Shurite” Karate that he learned from the Okinawan masters and created a Karate-Justu style using Karate techniques within a Jujutsu format as he was previously a high ranking sensei in a Jujutsu called Shindo YoshinRyu. In order to “codefy” his newly created “Jutsu” Otsuka Sensei registered numerous techniques with the “Dai Nippon Butoku Kai” the head office of Japanese MA as it were. Many of these are not practiced in the Wado Dojos today, but the core syllabus still remains namely:

• Kihon – Basic techniques

• Kata (forms) - Wado only has 15 Katas; Pinans - Nidan, Shodan, Sandan, Yondan Godan and Kushanku, Naihanchi, Seishan, Chinto, Bassai, Wanshu, Niseishi, Rohai, Jion and Jitte.

Each kata has specific qualities as to why it’s practiced, Chinto for example is for good balance, Kushanku for building stamina, Naihanchi for stability etc.

• Yakusoku Kumite ( usually about 4 head blocks, 4 Middle Blocks and 5-6 kicks depending on school)– Pre arranged Sparing – Taking very basic techniques and practicing against a partner.

• Ohyo Kumite – Transition stage. Not done by all Wado clubs, but designed to introduce “application” to more realistic fighting. A stepping stone as it were.

• Kihon Gumite – The most important in all Wado-Ryu pair work. Only when students have trained for approx 2-3years are they best to start. These techniques are the bedrock of Wado and teach students the key elements needed to understand how to fight; distance timing, focus, anticipation etc. At a very high level it’s about recognising the exact point when your opponent is at their most vulnerable reading your opponents body language and giving away as little of your intensions as possible.

• Idori, Tanto-dori and Tachi-Dori; in some clubs from 3rd Dan and above we study the advanced techniques from the Wado syllabus namely Idori – techniques from kneeling, Tanto-dori knife defense and Tachi-dori – standing defense against the Katana. These are really throwbacks from Wado’s Kodudo heritage of Shindo Yoshin Ryu, but nonetheless are important to the Wado practitioner in order to appreciate principles such as “mai-ai” (combat distance) and “atemi” (vital point striking). All of the above are trained in the earlier Kihon Gumite sessions but made a bit more real when you have a very sharp knife in front of you.

You can take individual techniques and elements from any of the above and apply them however you want, but it’s the sum of parts that count and how well the system teaches you to employ them.

All of the above may represent an “antique” in terms of martial arts from some peoples perspective, and that’s fine (I am old so I understand), but I am in no doubt that the system produces great fighters, probably the best karate fighters in the world.

But then I am biased!

[bushido_man96]

I think I may have given you the wrong impression. The self improvement I was referring to was really more to do with improving things like your fitness, agility (mental and physical) and reflexes etc. I have been studying traditional Japanese MA for a few years now and to be quite honest I am not that bothered about the “spiritual enlightenment” that I may achieve through training. Some times I think that we in the west misinterpret the “do” or “way” side of martial arts too much along the humanitarian lines. Sure it has its values but it’s not really where I come from, (as it’s not with most of the Japanese Sensei that I train with).

That does clarify things a bit, thanks. You and I share some of the same sentiments.

One thing that does concern me in your post about Kihon Gumite, being the bedrock of Wado, and the spot at which you really learn to fight, and the fact that it takes 3 years to get to that point. Pehaps I misunderstand, but I think that the Martial Artist should be able to defend himself before this amount of time is up. If I am misunderstanding, then please let me know.

[Zorbasan]

having gone from TKD (itf style) to shotokan karate i have found that they are almost identical.

not only are the stances/techniques pretty much the same, with the exception of smoe details, even a lot of the kata mix in with what they taught at TKD.

4 years in and i still have the fact that im doing something TKD way pointed out.

damn 15 year habits.

[bushido_man96]

Welcome back, Zorbs!