The most impractical weapon?

[tallgeese]

Above posters were correct, the police device that most people assciate with the tonfa is the PR-24. I don't know how they earned the designation. I've seen them in varying lengths and even collapsable models.

They've largely gone out of vouge these days due to the increased training time needed to learn to use them and employ the specialized joint manipulations that they are designed for. I think, from a law enforcment stand point, this is a good thing. I come out of a joint locking art, and I don't even know how to use one of the things. A cop with 40 hours of unarmed training in acadamy plus a week or so of refresher every year shouldnt be expected to have enough reps to effectively use it either.

Most places have gone to the expandable baton, like the Asp or Modonauk model. It's way easier to teach a straight club to someone at a basic level than more exotic weaponry.

[humble monk]

I have never seen the 3 section staff utilized to its fullest potential. Few weapons have as much potential to damage the user as well as the target. Sales of the foam covered ones must eclipse sales of the real ones 10 to 1. But they are fun, in a masochistic sort of way.

[boyo1991]

sai lol, there just not right, they are little swords with extra... handle overings? o.O well i guess if the sai didnt have those they would be useful for sneak attacks, but with them the knife is still really noticable..

[tallgeese]

Ok, since the thread got bumped, I'm going to say-

Any weapon that you're not trained in, can't carry conceiled, or don't have access to when you need it.

In my case, this rules out your traditional weapons save the knife and club.

[Mark33563]

I find it interesting that people are dismissing the bo as a practical weapon considering that many everyday itmes can be found to mimic it. To name a fiew:

* piece of PVC pipe

* mop/broom/shovel/hoe handle

* small diameter fence post

* pool cue

While I agree that any weapon that you are not trained to use is impractical, most people can still figure out how to use a staff to atleast deflect other weapons (bat, another staff, etc).

It can give you a chance to flee or secure other means of defense. Something is better than nothing.

What would you do if a scumbag approaches you with a knife? Sit there and cry or pick up a broom, break the handle and try to defend yourself?

Never under estimate your opponenet. Actual combat is different than running through a kata in the dojo.

[tallgeese]

Yes, lots of stuff looks like a bo. But it's long, slower than many other weapons and prone to becoming usless in tight spaces or grabbed and fought over. All that considered, it's still something and it moves you up the escalation ladder.

Still, you have to hope something is nearby that can mimic it. That's why I'd go with something you can conceil on your person in some fashion. That way there's no hoping, you have it.

For stick type weapons, that pretty much leaves you with a collapasable baton. Now you've got a quick weapon that's relitivly fast to deploy that gives you a modicum of range over edged weapons.

Knives fall into this catagory as well. Again, train to use them and be aware of the legalities of it. Depending on you're state or profession, firearms might be an option. Once more, training and proficiency is key.

[harleyt26]

If actual combat is different than how you practice kata,why practice kata? Kata is not a dance it is combat. That attitude implies your style,school or teacher is lacking.I would recommend bringing this thought to your instructor.Please let us know how he responded to it.

I do not see where a knife or club is more concealable or accessable than a traditional weapon.The traditional weapons must be considered by their classifications.A sai is a truncheon/club,a nunchaku is a flexible flail,a bo/staff, arnis or escrima sticks are used for training knife techniques.

To totaly eliminate the traditional weapons is only eliminating yourself from generations of experience with the items you may find accesible when you need them.

The founder of Shotokan,Gichin Funakoshi,was himself quite knowlegeable in bo and sai techniques.He was the first instructor of Taira Shinken the main person responsible for preserving the traditional weapons of Okinawa. taira Shinken learned the basics of bo and sai from Funakoshi before training with Yabiku Moden. Funakoshis Shorin Ryu is still taugh at the Hozon Shinko Kai honbu dojo on Okinawa.

Tom Hodges

[Mark33563]

Yes, lots of stuff looks like a bo. But it's long, slower than many other weapons and prone to becoming usless in tight spaces or grabbed and fought over. All that considered, it's still something and it moves you up the escalation ladder.

The whole idea is to avoid conflict, at least for me it is. I train so that I do not have to fight. If I pose a threat to a would be attacker, they may think twice about me being a target. A bo/stick/broom handle just may make the difference. I do not want to cave someone's skull in, but I will if I have to. Some of the movements in the katas are quite deadly, even without a weapon.

You bring up a good point about tight spaces and weapon choices. We are usually not at liberty to choose where we are attacked. But the last thing I want to do is fight knife to knife with someone. I want the advantage in some manner. Besides, I do not usually have a knife on me. Being an engineer I frequent various city halls, building deparments, courhouses, etc. that do not allow you to carry...concealed or otherwise. That gun in the car is not going to do me any good between the parking lot and the government building or bank. But that 2x4 or piece of irrifation pipe will...

Still, you have to hope something is nearby that can mimic it. That's why I'd go with something you can conceil on your person in some fashion. That way there's no hoping, you have it.

With a concealed weapons permit I can pretty much arm myself with what I want with a few location exceptions: banks, schools, airports, courthouses, etc. With that in mind, what are you going to do when you are no longer armed? You look for what can be used: a shoe, chair let, mop handle, etc.

For stick type weapons, that pretty much leaves you with a collapasable baton. Now you've got a quick weapon that's relitivly fast to deploy that gives you a modicum of range over edged weapons.

Knives fall into this catagory as well. Again, train to use them and be aware of the legalities of it. Depending on you're state or profession, firearms might be an option. Once more, training and proficiency is key.

Training is the key, no matter the weapon. I can only hope that I am better prepared to defend myself than the attacker is in villanizing me.

I love my Taurus 357, but it is not practical to carry. My next favorite is my snub nose 38 super with no exposed hammer. I carried it for years when riding my cruiser.

As for your earlier comment about the opposition grabbing or fighting over a weapon, that is true with any weapon. If you throw a sai they can pick it up and return it to you. Probably not in the manner you would want to receive it. If you swing at me with a knife, a good block can actually knock it lose....

[tallgeese]

Ah, the .38 snubbie, a favorite of mine to this day. Perfect back up, and great for fromal engagments where untucked just won't do.

As to what to do when you can't carry Mark, I agree, you start work with what you've got. And yeah, antyhing with the abilty to smash a knife out of someone's hand is a good idea. It's just that staff weapons aren't my ideal go to, just stating a preference, that's all.

harley, I have to agree with what was said above, respectfully, kata and combat share little in common these days, regardless of the attitude which displayed during practicing them. Methodology had progressed to other, in my opinion only, better ways of training people in how to fight. It' s only my opinion and certainly, I'm in the minority on that around here.

As to the classifications, you're right. That still dosen't change the fact that it's much easier to carry a knife than a set of 'chucks. I agree on the usefulness of training with sticks of some sort, either escrima or the japaneese hanbo. The primary reson is because with the advent of collapseabel batons, it's easy to carry them.

As for the sai, if you're actually training to use a weapon agaist another human being where the stakes are high enough to warrant the use of any weapon, why not train with the closest possible thing to that weapon you can? Forget the traditional design and completiy of a sai, just start working with a straght club. This will cut down on the training time needed to become proficient and up keep your skills.

Now, this is all from the viewpoint of training to use these weapons for practicality's sake. That dosn't mean that any other reason to practice them is faulty in some way. There is something to be said in training in something that you find to be a beautiful art, or for keeping old ways alive. It is not the reason I study, but it is still a vaild reason to spend time on the mat.

[Mark33563]

If actual combat is different than how you practice kata,why practice kata? Kata is not a dance it is combat. That attitude implies your style,school or teacher is lacking.I would recommend bringing this thought to your instructor.Please let us know how he responded to it....

Let me try to clarify my statement or atleast justify it. I realize that a kata is a combat simulation of one of more attackers. It is a simulation of an ideal battle, but that is not how combat works most of the time. If you have been in a street fight you would know this. If you have ever been in the 'ring' and competed, you would know this.

If you do not know the above, why not? If you do not realize that kata and combat are different, then I hope you never experience a street fight as you are likely to get hurt or worse.

Lets continue to explore my statement a little further. Take for example, Heian Sandan: (facing forward in Yoi is north for sake of argument) An attacker from the west is engaged, then an attacker to the east is engaged, then north, then south. That works if only one person is attacking you at a time. If east and west engage you at the same time, the kata does not work very well. You better have something else up your sleve.

When I have encountered multiple opponents they usually attacked two or three at a time. Please forgive me as I am only a green belt, so, which kata would work? Heian Yondan? Sandan? Nidan? Shodan? Maybe I am missing something with regards to their bunkai, please show/explain to me if I am. I want to better myself.

The first thing I would do in a combat situation is no get into the yoi position, but instead a fighting stance with the idea of using some self defense technique(s) and/or sparring combination(s). Perhaps work in a sweep, or snap kick from a kata or a portion of the kata but going through an entire kata would not be high on my list.

I have not been in a fight since I stated taking lessons. I have avoided a few. Knowing what I now know, I hope I do not get into a fight. I am liable to seriously injur someone and I am only a green belt. I can only imagine the damage a brown or black belt can inflict if they wanted to.

I train to be prepared for a fight I hope to never have to engage in.

"it is to a man's honor to avoid strife, but every fool is quick to quarrel" Prov. 20:3 (NIV)