Gi vs. No-gi Grappling

[MMA_Jim]

This is something that people always argue back and forth, and I have a feeling such an argument will never die.

First off- to those (Misasailant) who say no gi is more realistic- thats not always the case. Where do you live that people regularly walk around with a pair of fight shorts and nothing else? In Philly, for example, people are wearing some kind of sports jacket 2/3's of the year, making grips possible.

If grips arent availabe- a jiu jitsu fighters game shouldnt change all that much- hes not going to panic and explode, you know? If your game does change significantly, thats a good indication of your technical weakness....

[MMA_Jim]

I'm actually a fan of training gi, even for cross over sd purposes.

First off, it makes your technical game WAY tighter. If you want to really get good lines and the intricacies of a movement, do gi. It will send your no gi game through the roof.

Second off, in most parts of the country or at least my little corner, you can bet on a longsleeve shirt or jacket at least 4-5 months out of the year for general use. Not bad odds. Also, long pants will mimic the grips on the gi pant pretty effectively. So it's not as out of bounds as one would think.

More importantly, however, is the technical jump.

I decided to respond to this argument in a separate post, as it will take a little longer to address.....

The technical jump... I always hear that one "gi is more technical than no gi, training gi will improve your no gi game," etc etc.

So, alright come on guys- you're just reiterating what your instructors told you....

Now, my background- I've 8 years training BJJ from an acredited Gracie school (who's about as traditional as they come) and from two other world champions who are arguably the best in the world. I have no wrestling experience, really like to fight no gi, and really hate footlocks and consider them to be "below" me

So whats all the fuss- first off, to suggest that a grappler with the gi is more technical is a slap in the face to every person in the world timeline who ever grappled without one. Seriously, are you going to say that people like Alexander Karelin, Dan Gable, or Karl Gotch were not 3 of the most proficient grapplers that ever lived? None wore a gi a day in their life. If a gi fighter were so much more technical, how did American catch wrestlers absolutely manhandle judoka in the 1950s which led to the inception of shooto- a more "no gi" oriented judo if you will.

So, the reality is this- gi and no gi are practically the same thing. As a result, neither is more technical than the other, because the same options are available to both fighters. Both fighters wear a gi when competing in gi, and both without when doing no gi. The same options are available (and not available) to both fighters. Its like arguing which is more technical- boxing or kickboxing, or if you will, football or hockey, or anything else. Each is just as technical as the other, because the ruleset applies to BOTH competitors.

So back to this whole thing "oh well, more gi fighters and blackbelts are so much better than no gi fighters."

The reason why a BJJ blackbelt is so proficient isnt because hes wearing a gi- its because of the strategy taught in BJJ. Virtually every other grappling style didnt break the ground game down the way BJJ did for a real fight. Look at the catch wrestlers, the shooto guys in Japan who fought Pancrase- takedown and footlock, from everywhere. BJJ realized how important position dominance was in a fight and what could be achieved by it. Since the emphasis on passing the guard, getting the mount, and taking the back is so much more prevalent than other grappling styles, they've developed to be more suited for a real fight. Pouncing on a foot may work, but if you fail, your opponent can drop bombs on your face.

So again, the emphasis on positional dominance and positional heirarchy is what made (makes) BJJ fighters so much better- its not a peice of fabric guys. I can make a good grappler with or without the gi. I'd be willing to bet that Royler Gracie, Jacare, Xandre Ribeiro, and many others can as well. No one is RELYING on the gi. The gi simply gives more options (but again- this doesnt make it more technical!). The overall strategy of BJJ is what proves to be its most powerfull tool and what seemed to be so vacant from other grappling styles prior, and they could have done this with or without the g.

I'll be back to write the second part of my post, but I've got to go to the gym now...

[sensei8]

Gi or no gi, to me it just doesn't matter to me one way or another. It's just a tool; the tool is only as good as the practitioner.

That's my pennies worth.

[tallgeese]

Ok, a couple of good points there, granted.

However, this is an opinion born out of my experiance coming from mma and shoot to BJJ. I've also seen a techincal jump out of other guys in similar situations. It's not just reguritating what instructors have said, it's based on what I've seen and done. To suggest that is, quite frankly, a bit insulting.

There is more of a focus on slow, deleberiate movements. That seems to be the big difference I see.

No, I'm not suggesting any offense to any no gi arts. I'm talking about a focus primarily on BJJ-centric grappling.

[JiuJitsuNation]

The guys you named preach the gi! It is more technical and because you do have more options you have more to defend and think about. Without the gi escaping is much easier and you can slip out of hold easier.

No one is saying no gi grapplers are not top notch> But they do develop differently and rely more on slipping out of things. They also are not as aware.

My instructor is a 6th degree under Rickson. I have trained all over with the best in the world and their consensus is the same. Train in a gi to be better tighter and more technical and no gi will be a much easier game to play.

And yes the rules apply for both competitors but put a guy in a gi who has never been in one, world class even, and he will get a reality check. Whereas the guy who does both... well... can do both!

[MMA_Jim]

This thing has erased what Ive written twice over- its really making me angry.... I'll have to respond to each indivudual topic as a result

The guys you named preach the gi! It is more technical and because you do have more options you have more to defend and think about. Without the gi escaping is much easier and you can slip out of hold easier.

Of course they preach it- they're jiu jitsu fighters

Arguments are more effective combined with logic- according to yours, its MORE difficult to hold someone in no gi (since they can just slip out). As a result, your logic holds one becomes more technical training to hold someone down in no gi than with. Therefore, a no gi fighter is more technical on top than a gi fighter, since he must hold his opponent down without the aid of a gi

My instructor is a 6th degree under Rickson. I have trained all over with the best in the world and their consensus is the same. Train in a gi to be better tighter and more technical and no gi will be a much easier game to play.

Ive trained and competed against the best over the world, and I've got my fair share of victories. Im not someone stuck in some corner in the world. Again of course they advocate the gi, they're all jiu jitsu instructors and fighters. Some BJJ guys are similar to religous zealots- any blasphemy of BJJ demands a fight. I wont blame them to much, because I kinda do the same, but some people hold on to ideals so tightly that they cant see the forest from the trees

And yes the rules apply for both competitors but put a guy in a gi who has never been in one, world class even, and he will get a reality check. Whereas the guy who does both... well... can do both

That doesnt legitimize your argument that gi is more technical. Of course a gi fighter can compete no gi with more ease- if you're used to trying to move when people are grabbing you all the time, its not going to be too difficult to do it when people have less to grab. The reverse does not hold true.

I have trained with and seen many top notch BJJ fighters who have trained their first day of no gi after 10 years of training gi. It took a little getting used to- they got tapped by lower belts, sometimes even blue belts. After they adjusted, most were able to make their transition fairly easy (say within 6 months). According to your logic, they should have jumped straight from the gi into no gi and torn stuff up....

So what is it that is really different between gi and no gi? Is gi really more technical? Why would one want to train with a gi when training for a no gi or MMA fight?

This will be told by someone who couldnt hold a more neutral ground

1: Im a BJJ fighter and instructor

2: As such, I too also advocate the gi (but not because my instructor told me so)

3: When preparing for no gi or MMA fights, I train predominately with the gi

So to start- gi is no more technical than no gi. Most people advocate that because there are more techniques available in gi, it must therefore be more technical. If BJJ has taught us anything its that specialization is more important than generalization-quality over quantity. Carlson Gracie said himself "You may know 10,000 techniques, but they're useless if you cant make them work." He was right. A technical fighter is one who can apply a single technique to numerous situations. A person who always happens to get that armbar from the guard, always manages to get that one sweep, what have you- but hes very good at a few techniques (rather than trying 100 different moves in a single match). THAT is the definition of a technical fighter and what it means to be technical.

So whats the difference? WHy train gi for no gi or MMA? Well I'll tell you- no gi training is exceptionally hard on the body. Its very physically exhausting and demanding. Gi training, on the other hand, can be just as demanding, but due to the introduction of grips, it gives the participants the option to grab and hold the match at numerous times, allowing them to rest. As a result, if you're exhausting after 30 minutes of training in no gi, that same person may be able to train for 60 minutes with a gi, since they wont be denied rest due to "holding" the game. Because that person can train longer, they're able to apply their techniques more often. The more you practice or apply something, the better you get at it. As a result, one can argue a gi fighter has used his techniques more than a no gi fighter and will obviously be more proficient in them. But no there is nothing magical about the gi, and hard work, determination, and good instruction is what makes fighters- not some piece of clothing.

So why train with the gi for no gi or MMA? Well, again Im able to train more often while putting the gi on. It beats up my body less, and while I will take advantage of the grips available in gi, I do not rely on them. As a result, my game does not change from gi to no gi. Im equally dangerous on bottom and passing the guard in gi and no gi. I pass not because I rely on a grip or because I try to trick you by running one way and then the other- i pass because i know how to drop my weight in the right places and use leverage to my advantage. Likewise on the bottom- I rely on my hip positioning and proper leverage and NOT a grip to make my moves work. Some may say the same things, but watching their game live suggests otherwise. Many people, "world class" blackbelts and beginners alike, rely way too much on their gi grips for their game. I use my body as a whole to sweep someone rather than a grip or two. Neither is more technical or better than the other, because at the end of the day they are the same thing- grappling

[JiuJitsuNation]

Jim I feel like you know what I mean even though i'm not using so many words and your just being argumentative. Because throughout your post you have agreed and then disagreed. I have never seen anyone above purple have trouble making the transition. And "top notch" ?? having trouble?? being tapped by blues??

Not what i've seen.

And it's funny you mention Carlson. Before he died he used to come watch me compete.

No one said you are stuck in your corner of the world. Just not my experience's that's all. Because opinion is just that. And true, methods of training are different. But the fact still stands no one displays consistent a foundation as BJJ BBs. Maybe it is the strategy and positioning. I am full aware of the differences between grappling styles and why BJJ stands out.

I'm not really sure what the debate is here. Since you basically agreed with me on all accounts.

[MMA_Jim]

Jim I feel like you know what I mean even though i'm not using so many words and your just being argumentative. Because throughout your post you have agreed and then disagreed. I have never seen anyone above purple have trouble making the transition. And "top notch" ?? having trouble?? being tapped by blues??

Not what i've seen.

I have- transition takes time, its not overnight. I've seen plenty (and trained with plenty) who are tough guys with the gi, only to be pushovers when they take it off. Some of these guys were Pan American Champions, Brazilian National Champions, and Mundial medalists at the higher ranks. It happens.

Example: there are guys who are world class (or world champions even) that are phenominal with the gi. Take a guy who's a strong guard player with gi. Some I've seen that take the gi off can no longer pose a viable threat from the bottom, because they're too used to RELYING on the gi instead of simply taking advantage of it. It happens plenty, and this is how you can see someone who's a world champion BJJ fighter go into MMA and perform god horrible. It happens. There are some who make a transition well, and some that dont.

No one said you are stuck in your corner of the world. Just not my experience's that's all. Because opinion is just that. And true, methods of training are different. But the fact still stands no one displays consistent a foundation as BJJ BBs. Maybe it is the strategy and positioning. I am full aware of the differences between grappling styles and why BJJ stands out.

I agree

I'm not really sure what the debate is here. Since you basically agreed with me on all accounts.

The debate? Well, lets just say Im a logical person. Many people in the BJJ world are all about the gi, but sometimes for all the wrong reasons. There are many BJJ'ers who cant compete in no gi, because their game is faulty, relying on something such as a gi to get the job done.

The debate is perhaps as to whether gi or no gi is more technical. I love competing no gi, and theres alot of BJJ'ers who like to repeat over and over "hey, well gi is more technical" when its simply isnt the case- they're parrots reiterating what their instructors said is all.

People can rely on slipperyness and strength in no gi just as one can rely on strong grips in gi. Again I've trained with people that are acustomed to doing both- a strong wrestler who just uses strength and power to escape submissions suddenly isnt doing so well when a gi is slapped on him- thats a common example. Not so common an example is someone who uses a grip on the collar, spider guard, or variation thereof to the extent that the rest of their guard is poorly developed. When the gi and grips are taken away from them, these fighters often times prove to be just as lacking in technique, unable to move their hips and know proper escapes and positioning. They have an unpassable guard in gi, but you find you slide through that same guard like a knife through butter when you take that gi off.

So yeah, its about which is more technical, gi or no gi and again that most people cant provide a viable arguement that one is more technical than the other. There are technical and not so technical people that compete/practice in both- just because you decide to put on a jacket doesnt make you more technical.

[JiuJitsuNation]

I think I understand. You are saying that either transition from gi or no gi is difficult.

My experiences (not my instructor) have taught me that gi makes you better. I did my own personal study on myself. But maybe it is unique to me.

I find both challenging in their own ways. I am a regional, national and Pan American champion and find no difficulty in doing either. I find that basic principles apply.

Grab the sleeve=wrist control

Lapel grip=grab the head(neck)

elbow grip=elbow grip

Maybe it's the way I teach and my understanding.

I have one no gi class a week. My students smash their competition in both categories.

That is a very good point about the spider or any open guard that relies on the grips and counter pressure. There many benefits of the gi slowing you down and doing anything else that translates into both. The friction alone makes a difference in movement, escapes and timing among other things. I truly believe you can get away with less technique without the though.

And I believe the gi teaches you how to get past that hurdle.

[bushido_man96]

I am really enjoying the responses here, guys. Its nice to see this old thread pop up. When the semester starts back up at the college, I'll be able to get back to the DT classes, in which they do some BJJ, but none with gi...just regular gym clothes. I really wish we had a dedicated school or MMA gym around my area for it, but, I have to make due.