Back to karate

[bushido_man96]

Karate, IS a complete martial art, it includes locks, throws, strikes, blocks etc in all of its kata. The only thing is like 'boxing' alot of the techniques have been lost through mis-interpretation. As a researcher into Medieval Combat, you will agree that Boxing used to include, locks and throws but were slowly filtered out. Also within Wrestling, it slowly filtered out the striking techniques.

I agree, many things have changed over the years, like when combat arts become sport (as you have pointed out with Wrestling and Boxing), and when forms of Jutsu become Do (like Karate-do and Aikido have become).

I would recommend reading some of Iain Abernathy's books, including Karate's Grappling methods.

I have read some of Abernethy's work, and have found it quite interesting. Stuart Anslow has a book on similar interpretations for TKD forms as well. Although I find it interesting to see and learn the interpretations of the forms, I think that you can learn practical applications in the absense of forms as well, and that doesn't make one any less of a Martial Artist.

Kata is what Karate is all about...

Some will agree with you. Others may state that Karate is about self-defense/fighting; it depends on the ideals and methodologies of the teacher/student.

A very good post, Dobbersky. I do like your points and ideas.

I think Cross sums it up very well here:

Here is a disclaimer to any of my "anti-kata" posts:

All views expressed are in reference to learning purely self protection. If thats your goal, there are better ways than kata. But if you want to learn a complete art and have the time(which i do) to break-down the movements and principles, then practicing kata can be very rewarding.

[Dobbersky]

Gentlemen and ladies

I am honoured to be able to converse with Martial artists who are devoted to the arts as I am.

I also agree with your points and ideas bushido_man-sama. Its a shame that distance is apparent for us as I am sure we could spend hours at a Bar or Coffee shop discussing the Pros and Cons of Martial Arts, And I would love to show you some Ashihara Kata as they are exclusive to the Ashihara/Enshin organisations. I have also always want to see Hapkido hyungs and applications, but there are no clubs within a 100 mile radius of me.

Again my Upmost respects

Osu

[bushido_man96]

Its a shame that distance is apparent for us as I am sure we could spend hours at a Bar or Coffee shop discussing the Pros and Cons of Martial Arts, And I would love to show you some Ashihara Kata as they are exclusive to the Ashihara/Enshin organisations. I have also always want to see Hapkido hyungs and applications, but there are no clubs within a 100 mile radius of me.

I agree! I think that this would be a great time! There is so much to learn and discuss. Perhaps someday...

[Killer Miller]

Good disclaimer Cross. My disclaimer would be:

"I'm sure you think you understood what I said, but I'm sure you don't realize that what I said is not what I meant..."

:0)

- Killer -

[cross]

Good disclaimer Cross. My disclaimer would be:

"I'm sure you think you understood what I said, but I'm sure you don't realize that what I said is not what I meant..."

:0)

- Killer -

Haha, something like that

[bushido_man96]

Good disclaimer Cross. My disclaimer would be:

"I'm sure you think you understood what I said, but I'm sure you don't realize that what I said is not what I meant..."

:0)

- Killer -

That sounds kind of Yogi Berra-esque.

[cross]

Another reason i returned to karate is that i found the rbsd type training is not really a long term thing, with good instruction from the right people, self protection can be learned rather quickly, in a matter or weeks or months, so there is not really a great deal of expansion and room to move within this type of training.

I dismissed kata has being useless for a while, because i never really understood the applications well enough to develop them and i didnt have the skills to analyze the kata and find the principles and applications within. Has my research continues in finding more and more use for kata and karate style training (even the fist on the hip style punch that i dismissed has pointless in earlier discussions).

Kata gives me an almost unlimited depth of training depending on how far a wish to take it, and something that i will continue to develop and learn from in years, not just weeks or months. To some this may seem like a complete backflip on my part, but previous to my self protection focus, i used to believe the above things to be true about kata. After i while i began to question and because i didnt dig deep enough for the answers i started looking for the more direct approach(rbsd stuff), i suppose to find true value in something you have to experience the alternative also.

A good quote i read quiet a while ago and found again recently from Iain Abernethy pretty much sums it up:

"Martial arts are a life long study, kata is a life long study, but you can teach self-protection in a matter of hours. As I say, the physical side of it essentially revolves around a singe pre-emptive strike. I'd also like to point out that 95% of self-protection is about awareness and having a healthy attitude to personal safety. The last 5% is the "hard" physical skills. Of that last 5% the majority of it is controlling the situation and being pre-emptive. It's a common mistake for people to believe that fighting skills are the key to self-protection."

[bushido_man96]

A good quote i read quiet a while ago and found again recently from Iain Abernethy pretty much sums it up:

"Martial arts are a life long study, kata is a life long study, but you can teach self-protection in a matter of hours. As I say, the physical side of it essentially revolves around a singe pre-emptive strike. I'd also like to point out that 95% of self-protection is about awareness and having a healthy attitude to personal safety. The last 5% is the "hard" physical skills. Of that last 5% the majority of it is controlling the situation and being pre-emptive. It's a common mistake for people to believe that fighting skills are the key to self-protection."

That is a pretty good quote.

Like you, I think that forms training is enjoyable. For the first time in a while, I have a form to do now that is quite challenging for me to get down. However, in our forms, we don't get into the applications much at all. Therefore, I get more out of my Defensive Tactics/Combat Hapkido sessions as far as self-defense goes than I do my forms training. I do have a book that gets into applications on the forms of my system, but I haven't had an opportunity to apply them yet. However, I cannot argue that the technique that I have trained over the years of doing forms has not helped out in my ability to apply strong techniques in my self-defense training sessions.

I do feel that I would be better prepared overall if I would have had more self-defense/self-protection training over the past several years, though. I think that doing both has been very beneficial to me. My TKD workouts are much more strenuous physically than my DT/Hapkido sessions are. But the DT sessions are much more tactical.

[cross]

Like you, I think that forms training is enjoyable. For the first time in a while, I have a form

to do now that is quite challenging for me to get down. However, in our forms, we don't get into the applications much at all. Therefore, I get more out of my Defensive Tactics/Combat Hapkido sessions as far as self-defense goes than I do my forms training. I do have a book that gets into applications on the forms of my system, but I haven't had an opportunity to apply them yet. However, I cannot argue that the technique that I have trained over the years of doing forms has not helped out in my ability to apply strong techniques in my self-defense training sessions.

Another quote from Abernethy:

"To practise karate as a pragmatic system, kata needs to be actively studied, as opposed to just 'practised'."

This is an important distinction, most people will just go through the kata and never try to break it down, or attempt to find applications but become frustrated when it doesnt happen straight away. So their training just becomes mindless repetition and you will lose interest fast.

But if you take an active approach to kata training and look at how the kata relates to combat, and then start applying it, you find lots of very valuable information.

Part of the problem i see is that most bunkai taught is to far away from reality to work even in sparring. So people are put off by it. But there are people, like Abernethy, who teach bunkai that can be effectively used within sparring and is transferable to self defense situations.

Some examples of what im currently working on:

At the moment i am looking at the clinch work found in Wanshu and how it relates to neck control and striking from the clinch. Also the escapes and dis-engagements from the clinch range.

Escapes from wrist grabs found within various kata from the context of the wrist being grabbed after you gouge eyes, crush the throat or crush the groin.

Throwing techniques found within kata from the half clinch, and entering the half clinch from shuto-uke.

All of which is useable in combat.

Its very possible to look at these techniques on their own without the reference back to kata. But making the reference is important for a couple of reasons:

1. Within an existing class, its a common ground because everyone knows the kata so they can make a quick reference to the movement.

2. If you look a step after or before the technique your focusing on you often find important parts of information that make the application more effective.

3. You can do the kata on your own without a partner and visualize the application.

The more i researched reality based stuff, the more connections i found back to traditional arts and techniques. Just delivered in a different manner.

[bushido_man96]

Those are some great aspects that you are looking at there, Cross.