for the Zen students

[Daisho]

my favorite piece of literature Zen or otherwise is the Perfect Wisdom of the Heart Sutra.

I see people here relate their Zen to their training, which i don't necessarily do with literature (koans/sutra), but as a Buddhist I have vowed to be skillful in all things I do, and that is the typical extent of my relationship between my Buddhism and my Jujutsu (aside from my zazen pre-training to remind me of my focus).

Anyway a foundational belief for a Zen Buddhist is that form is emptiness, and emptiness is form. this is provactive to any martial art student, as the basis of our training is in forms. So here not to defeat the prajna paramita of the sutra, I will explain my understanding.

We perceive reality through the prism of our senses and minds. Usually, our senses and minds work in a certain way and that way somehow constrains our perceptions and thoughts. So, to use a metaphor, it's like throwing a net or veil upon the reality and than seeing that veil and not the reality itself. On one hand, the net/veil captures reality, organizes it. On the other hand, it also simplifies reality, misses some important aspects of it. For every net we construe is conventional and so, it involves some "arbitrary" assumptions and preconceptions.

The term "form" refers to reality understood as caught in that organizing net of assumptions and preconceptions. The term "Shunyata" refers to reality understood as this what transcends all forms, assumptions, predispositions. Another way to put it, when remove the net, when we put it aside, we access the "bare" reality (reality in itself). That's Shunyata.

the idea that reality is not grasped purely, but only in relative terms, and that things therefore are "empty" of inherent value or status. But that's really all "Emptiness" means. Emptiness or Shunyata isn't some "ultimate reality"- it's simply the mode of being of Form. Whatever exists to our perceptions- Form- is empty; it is empty of any preconceived notions we have about it. It is empty of inherent existence, apart from other things.

So emptiness is a mode of form, the true way form exists. Emptiness is NEVER a thing apart from form; you don't strip away form, leaving behind only emptiness. They are inseparable. They arise simultaneously and together, always.

Therefore in a Kenjutsu kata, it's true reality is not Kenjutsu at all. When we actively think of our karate as a "mystical combat artform" we act in a "formed" way, to allow it to support our preconceptions of eastern philosophy/movement. When we empty the kata, and just do the movements in a combat mindset, the true nature of the form is revealed.

[Daisho]

awww been gone for a year and no-one found this interesting?

[joesteph]

I'm really a Westerner in terms of my thoughts, Daisho, so I may be viewing what you're saying differently from what you mean. Sometimes, when we hear someone else's thoughts, we are too literal in an attempt to understand, rather like confusing the map for the territory.

But let me give this a shot.

We perceive reality through the prism of our senses and minds. Usually, our senses and minds work in a certain way and that way somehow constrains our perceptions and thoughts.

The Western science and philosophy I'm familiar with tells me that our senses, and therefore our minds--which are dependent on the senses for taking in information--are often off the mark, though they work well enough for us to interact with the world.

Say it's the sound of your voice. How many people, hearing their voice on tape for the first time, insist it sounds nothing like them? What happens is that, when we speak, there's a vibration in the jaw that goes up to the ear canal and distorts the sound of our own voices. This says to me that we not only hear a voice that is not "truly" our own ("deceived" by nature?), but that for most of the history of the human race, people did not know the "true" sound of their voices, because for most of human history there have not been recording devices.

[T]he idea [is] that reality is not grasped purely, but only in relative terms, and that things therefore are "empty" of inherent value or status. But that's really all "Emptiness" means. Emptiness or Shunyata isn't some "ultimate reality"- it's simply the mode of being of Form. Whatever exists to our perceptions- Form- is empty; it is empty of any preconceived notions we have about it. It is empty of inherent existence, apart from other things.

When speaking of Form in Western philosophy, we tend to center on Plato. Plato, Socrates' student, developed the idea of the eternal Forms; that which both the material and non-material (qualities) are based on. In terms of the material, we can see this, that, and the other item, and recognize them all as, say, horses. To Plato, there must be a perfect, and ideal, Form of "horseness" that we tap into for understanding, that each horse we see has this within it, or is a facet of it. When it comes to the non-material, to qualities, there must be, to Plato, the perfect Form of the Good, the Just, the Beautiful. It's upon these eternal and perfect Forms that we recognize these qualities when they are presented to us. The Forms do not exist "out there"--as though somewhere else, in another place--but permeate throughout the world that exists all about us. To Plato, what is "truly real" is the Form; what we have is not "as real," but based on which is "truly real," and therefore inferior, like a shadow in comparison with what the thing is that casts the shadow.

So emptiness is a mode of form, the true way form exists. Emptiness is NEVER a thing apart from form; you don't strip away form, leaving behind only emptiness. They are inseparable. They arise simultaneously and together, always.

As Plato reached old age, he began to be concerned that his emphasis on the perfect Form of something material may not hold up as strongly as on the non-material. His student, Aristotle, did not accept the eternal and perfect Forms of material things (although I can't say what his view was on the non-material; I've never read anything that addressed this). Let's say we think of the perfect form of human being. But there are men and there are women, so there must then be a perfect Form of man and another of woman. But let's say we look at the woman's hand. There must be, as Aristotle interpreted Plato, a perfect Form of human hand, perhaps woman's hand. Then we look at the index finger. Would there not be a perfect Form of finger? And so on until we have an absurd number of Forms to model the material on. To Aristotle, never separate the Form from the object, that there are not two worlds, one of the Forms and one that we encounter, that one permeates but is not part of the other, as they are inseparable.

Therefore in a Kenjutsu kata, it's true reality is not Kenjutsu at all. When we actively think of our karate as a "mystical combat artform" we act in a "formed" way, to allow it to support our preconceptions of eastern philosophy/movement. When we empty the kata, and just do the movements in a combat mindset, the true nature of the form is revealed. (emphasis added)

This seems to be a psychological interpretation and, at least in the West, psychology was born of/has its roots in philosophy, that there's a mindset, an "identification" with "qualities" that may or may not be accurate. We seek to find what is in our mindset in what we do/encounter. I believe you are saying, Daisho, that when we "empty the kata" we are clearing our minds of the mindset, and what something truly is is then revealed to our open, receptive minds.

[bushido_man96]

Nice work, Joe. Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle. Very nice.

[Daisho]

When speaking of Form in Western philosophy, we tend to center on Plato. Plato, Socrates' student, developed the idea of the eternal Forms; that which both the material and non-material (qualities) are based on. In terms of the material, we can see this, that, and the other item, and recognize them all as, say, horses. To Plato, there must be a perfect, and ideal, Form of "horseness" that we tap into for understanding, that each horse we see has this within it, or is a facet of it. When it comes to the non-material, to qualities, there must be, to Plato, the perfect Form of the Good, the Just, the Beautiful. It's upon these eternal and perfect Forms that we recognize these qualities when they are presented to us. The Forms do not exist "out there"--as though somewhere else, in another place--but permeate throughout the world that exists all about us. To Plato, what is "truly real" is the Form; what we have is not "as real," but based on which is "truly real," and therefore inferior, like a shadow in comparison with what the thing is that casts the shadow.

OMG, I had spent a half hour fleshing out thoughts on the form of the horse, and my browser crapped out when i hit submit =(((((((((((

Anyway the point of it all was that form doesn't exist in the exact moment that we live in. It is applied to events as they pass. The moment to moment of life doesn't support conscious thought.

If I'm engaed in kenjutsu randori with someone who has trained deeply in kenjutsu I find that my defense and offense is strongly based in technique. However when I've engaged non-practioners or even kendo focused students their differences of angles and arcs leads me to act much more dynamically and immediately decisive. Then reviewing my fight I notcie alot of the principles of the techniques I've learned in my engagement, if not the exact technique.

So when I apply form to my studies, my style is dead, it's a relic of my preconceptions and training. When I engage in combat my style is alive, and rooted in technique, but not limited by it.

btw joe, I grew up and am currently staying in bayonne and am also named joe lol.

[joesteph]

OMG, I had spent a half hour fleshing out thoughts on the form of the horse, and my browser crapped out when i hit submit =(((((((((((

Ever since I downloaded the last service pack for Explorer 7, Daisho, my Dell has experienced occasional frozen screens, and an old but very easy-to-use program to crop, brighten, and sharpen scanned photos won't work anymore.

Anyway the point of it all was that form doesn't exist in the exact moment that we live in.

Completely opposite the Western view of Plato. Will East and West ever reconcile?

It is applied to events as they pass. The moment to moment of life doesn't support conscious thought.

Then do you reject the concept of a "stream of consciousness," Daisho? Or do you instead believe that we wink in and out, apply and suspend, conscious thought at given moments?

I find that my defense and offense is strongly based in technique.

Would you say, though, that your thought process is so rapid that you're unaware of how the brain (which I believe is the seat of the mind, even though one is tangible and the other intangible) is able to cause the body to apply technique?

Thought process is not only rapid, it's also deceptive, but that's not necessarily an "evil" thing. Consider how we blink our eyes continually, as a natural healthy function, but meaning that we shut our eyes continually, and therefore "should" be seeing a veil or curtain (eyelids) drop and lift in our viewing the scene of the world. But this doesn't happen to us. We don't see the world like looking at people dancing under a strobe light. Instead, the brain compensates for the blinking, giving us the false view that we see a constant scene before us, when any high speed camera can record our blinking (shutting the eyes), and even with the naked eye, we can see one another--or become self-conscious of ourselves--closing our eyes to the world. We are unaware until made aware of this process.

[R]eviewing my fight I notcie alot of the principles of the techniques I've learned in my engagement, if not the exact technique.

The self-examination process in full swing. And we surprise ourselves.

So when I apply form to my studies, my style is dead, it's a relic of my preconceptions and training. When I engage in combat my style is alive, and rooted in technique, but not limited by it.

Form as kata or hyung is what I'm reading here, Daisho, not quite the same as the eternal Forms of Socrates and Plato. Style, in your case, I'd say dormant, rather than dead (a finality). Is your style awakened from slumber when in combat?

btw joe, I grew up and am currently staying in bayonne and am also named joe lol.

That's Bayonne for you, Joe, it seizes hold of you at birth and never lets go. I've seen the town go through many changes, evolving from an industrial one to being far more residential, and I always feel at home.

[Daisho]

Then do you reject the concept of a "stream of consciousness," Daisho? Or do you instead believe that we wink in and out, apply and suspend, conscious thought at given moments?

I tend to think the "stream" part is kind of a meta-thought, or narrative that is constantly being applied in retrospect. Only time I can think of to illustrate is when the more Kendo minded would refer to zanshin. When instant and decisive action is necessary, we rarely act in accordance with thought. Also the sheer number of times people are asked what they're thinking when something sudden or unexpected has happened and they reply that they weren't thinking, only acting [reacting]. It seems our narrative is suspended as our action empties us.

Or even the times we're momentarily distracted while mid sentence, and completely forget what we were saying. The distraction didn't just merge into our constant flowing stream of conscious, it (for whatever reason) warranted immediate thought (action) and the mind didn't yet have a chance to apply form. When you sit zazen you find these snapshots of moments often.

Would you say, though, that your thought process is so rapid that you're unaware of how the brain (which I believe is the seat of the mind, even though one is tangible and the other intangible) is able to cause the body to apply technique?

Thought process is not only rapid, it's also deceptive, but that's not necessarily an "evil" thing. Consider how we blink our eyes continually, as a natural healthy function, but meaning that we shut our eyes continually, and therefore "should" be seeing a veil or curtain (eyelids) drop and lift in our viewing the scene of the world. But this doesn't happen to us. We don't see the world like looking at people dancing under a strobe light. Instead, the brain compensates for the blinking, giving us the false view that we see a constant scene before us, when any high speed camera can record our blinking (shutting the eyes), and even with the naked eye, we can see one another--or become self-conscious of ourselves--closing our eyes to the world. We are unaware until made aware of this process.

Yes i absolutely agree here. All of our instinct is either routed through the brain or at least the spine. However I don't think the natural reaction of blinking is thought (or a process of thought), if that was the intention of the opening sentence. The instinct of blinking is the bodies reaction in the moment. It does not plan to blink at certain intervals, it feels a dryness or a grain of sand and reacts. (That entire last statement was only an assumption, as I have little idea the exact mechanics of blinking).

As for the following statement, yes, in retrospect we can assemble a steady stream of vision throughout blinking, as our mind continues the narrative and deduces logical progression of anything it happened to miss. There's many mind tricks out there that show how the brain applies implied information where none exists. But again this is formulated as narrative of what it missed and therefore the past. If a color were to flash in the exact moment of the blink and be gone before the eyes reopened, it would go unnoticed. Because we didn't notice the curtains drop, doesn't mean we didn't just look at our eye-lids when that color flashed

Form as kata or hyung is what I'm reading here, Daisho, not quite the same as the eternal Forms of Socrates and Plato. Style, in your case, I'd say dormant, rather than dead (a finality). Is your style awakened from slumber when in combat?

I was using form to mean my idea of kenjutsu. When I'm fighting someone trained in the same style, I attempt technique and counter technique. Because we're both trained and know the other is as well, our randori can be stagnant. We're both actively using technique, and it has little to do with "martial" art. In the times I've had a go with the kendo students, I cannot plan far ahead. They're not playing by the same rules, and I'm not about to get my behind kicked by them.

In that competition I see my trainings importance. My muscles are conditioned to give me the most possible time and strength, so when my mind percieves something i can react. These matches are what pushes those moments to their limit. And in those moments my style is empty, my mind is focused, and my bokken is swift.

That's Bayonne for you, Joe, it seizes hold of you at birth and never lets go. I've seen the town go through many changes, evolving from an industrial one to being far more residential, and I always feel at home.

lol, yea ain't that the truth. I'd been living in brooklyn for the passed 7 years, and happened to move back home with the fam on my 30th b-day this august Do you train in town? Is there a local Judo school? I would like to keep the tempo of my training up since I'll be staying here through the winter.

[joesteph]

Do you train in town? Is there a local Judo school? I would like to keep the tempo of my training up since I'll be staying here through the winter.

Yes, I train at Lago Soo Bahk Do, and Bayonne Judo shares the dojang, making it into a dojo twice a week after Soo Bahk Do classes end (7:30). My instructor has no problem with having a striking art and a grappling one studied simultaneously, just so long as one doesn't suffer from neglect.

I think there's a limit on how much can be posted, Joe, so I'll PM you what info you need.

[Greenfire54]

wow, that was amazing guys. the poetry and the deep intellectual thought coming from both of you is... wow. I often dwell in philosophy but ive never read a discussion like this. Daisho and joe, if you have any more thoughts and ideas on anything would you mind posting them? I would really like to here them

[Traymond]

Speaking of poetry

Imagawa Sadayo has alot of poetry dealing with Zen (Particularly Zazen)