Demanding Respect from other MAs a defeatist attitude?

[username8517]

Everyday (and truth be told, often multiple times a day), when strolling through the various martial arts forums, I inevitably see something posted to the extent of "all martial artists should respect each other simply because they're martial artists." And the more and more I think about, I can't help but think this is nothing more than flawed logic.

After all, I cannot think of another hobby or profession that demands respect based merely upon being in the same category. Martial arts though, seems to be the exception, regardless of how you define it. Define martial arts as a sport and you can see that baseball players are required to be respectful of each other, let alone athletes in other sports, merely based on the fact they play, regardless of whether it is in the Major, minors, or the sandlot. Define martial arts as an art form and find that Photographers are not required to give respect to sculpters based on the fact their both artists. Define martial arts as warfare training and you won't find that the US military forces are required to respect the forces of other nations automatically.

Regardless of how you define martial arts, I most commonly see the demand for respect between martial artists arise when one party insults another or a question is asked the person apparently can't answer in regards to technique or lineage. And to me, this seems like a way to say "I don't have a valid response so I'll invoke the stance of morality to end this." And the vast majority of the time, this is between practioners of who different styles.

So what exactly is respect? Respect is defined (and pardon my generalization) as presentation of honor or esteem other another, showing a sense of worth, or displaying proper courtesty or acceptance of another.

Given the cliche, respect is earned not given, why does martial arts seem to be the exception? And where exactly in your training do you learn respect?

I, however, feel that respect is not mutually exclusive with martial arts. Rather, respect for other, regardless if they have formal training or not, is the quality of a good human being, not a good martial artist. Respect is something that we as humans have innately. We cannot teach others how the proper way to show respect nor can we force respect to be given unless one desires to give respect.

Granted the arguement could be made about beating someone until they give respect, but that respect would be more out of submission and fear of punishment rather than genuine earnest respect. A clear distinction.

But yet, respect is often called the cornerstone of martial arts. One website openly states, "The essence of all Oriental Martial Arts is a deep-rooted belief that courtesy is the ultimate of all virtues." The glaring issue with this statement is the word essence, which is defined as the basic, real, or invariable nature of a thing. A poster on another board earlier today even stated that "martial arts USED to be about respect."

Rather, martial arts, Oriental and Western, were primarily rooted in the need to defend one's self in combat. This can be verified by studying the history of various martial arts. The need for survival came first and foremost. Other facets such as respect, bushido, and honor were an afterthought. It wasn't until later, after formal training in an art was established that aspects of the cultures found their way into the methodolgy of practice.

Simply put, in my personal studies, outside of a few arts created in the growth explosion of martial arts (i.e.--the last two decades), I have yet to find anyone who created a martial art with respect being the forerunner to practical self-defense.

Am I saying that these secondary benefits such as respect, fitness, spirituality, honor, and so on cannot lead to the betterment of a person? Absolutely not, but they certainly are not a requirement or applicable to all. Those that choose to foster these portions of our humanity will and those that won't, simply put, won't. That doesn't mean they're any less capable of defending themselves.

With that being said, why is the association between high levels of respect and someone being a martial artist tied together? Certainly, someone can be a complete jerk showing no one but themselves respect and still be more than able to protect themselves.

So in conclusion, is demanding something nothing more than a preconceived stereotype amongst martial artists a defeatist attitude by those who cannot logically state their side of a debate?

Oh, and just to put it out there, I myself will be the first to admit that I don't give everyone the same amount of respect when it comes to martial arts. My criteria for respect is based off a multitude of things, but primarily boil down to how they train. The martial artist the puts in blood, sweat, and tears into their training as well as critically analyzing the information their given every workout will get more respect from me than those who show up once a week and spend more time socializing with other students than actually working out. I will also respect the martial artist who evaluates and tests moves against a resisting opponent to find out what works for them more respect than on the one who simply says, "my instructor says that strike X will kill anyone so it's too dangerous to practice." And finally, if I see slop or flawed logic behind a technique, I'm going to call the person on it and see if they can provide a logical explanation behind said technique.

[bushido_man96]

You have hit the nail on the head, Bearich. I share many of the sentiments that you have elaborated on here.

I, however, feel that respect is not mutually exclusive with martial arts. Rather, respect for other, regardless if they have formal training or not, is the quality of a good human being, not a good martial artist. Respect is something that we as humans have innately. We cannot teach others how the proper way to show respect nor can we force respect to be given unless one desires to give respect.

Granted the arguement could be made about beating someone until they give respect, but that respect would be more out of submission and fear of punishment rather than genuine earnest respect. A clear distinction.

Bingo. I agree. Being respectful has more to do with being a human being than a Martial Artist. I know some people in my school who really aren't great people, but are great Martial Artists. Now, I know that this statement will bring some friction, because many think that the two are the same, and this is just not the case. When you talk about fighting or making war, those are the things that count; not respect levels or morals.

Rather, martial arts, Oriental and Western, were primarily rooted in the need to defend one's self in combat. This can be verified by studying the history of various martial arts. The need for survival came first and foremost. Other facets such as respect, bushido, and honor were an afterthought. It wasn't until later, after formal training in an art was established that aspects of the cultures found their way into the methodolgy of practice.

Again, I agree whole-heartedly. This is exactly what the Martial Arts were born out of. On a side note, not to get too off topic, when you look into the very root of the Martial Styles, you will find that they all had more in common than they had different, as far as techniques used and taught. It wasn't until after the advent of gunpowder to warfare, which changed how wars were fought, and the use of hand-to-hand combat became diminished, that the stylized differences began to emerge in the Martial Styles that we know and love today (in my opinion).

So in conclusion, is demanding something nothing more than a preconceived stereotype amongst martial artists a defeatist attitude by those who cannot logically state their side of a debate?

Although I have taken liberties with the spots quoted above , I believe this is the heart of your arguement, and thus deserves addressing. I think that it may very well be the case. I touched on this idea a bit in my article titled Martial Arts Monogamy, and I think that it still holds true, to an extent. I think with the advent of styles like MMA and RBSD systems, however, that this kind of nievity is steadily on the decline, and the need to test things for what they really are is taking over. At least I hope so.

Great post, bearich.

[Sensei Rick]

The confusion comes from interchanging the words respect with politeness. They are not the same word. You can be polite to someone without actually respecting them.

The behaviors in a MA class give off the illusion of respect because of the formality of the behaviors. and to a westerner, the bowing and recitation of kun's give off the illusion of respect.

If you return a bow, you might be doing it because you are just being polite, and you don't have to respect the person.

The same goes for other styles. You can e polite to a person of another style without respecting them..... I may or may not be guilty of this myself

I don't believe that you should respect a particular style, but if you meet another BB of another style, understand that they may have been thru much training to get where they are, and the self examining that you have done may not be taught in there club. some people aren't interested in getting better or examining their technique that minutely.... it's easier just to listen to the instructor and replicate it as you've been told. I try not to hold someone else to my standard if they are not my student, but my behavior toward them is almost always polite.....and I might not respect them. Or maybe I do, and that shouldn't matter to them. what should matter are my actions and what I do, not how i feel about technique or anything else.

make sense?

[bushido_man96]

Good response, Rick.

What you say about politeness and respect is true. Great way to put it.

[username8517]

I agree Rick. Being polite and respectful are two entirely different things. But the heart of my post, as BM pointed out, is when respect is demanded as a substitute for logic simply because one is a martial artist.

[bushido_man96]

I agree Rick. Being polite and respectful are two entirely different things. But the heart of my post, as BM pointed out, is when respect is demanded as a substitute for logic simply because one is a martial artist.

"Respect" should not be commanded or used as a crutch for not being able to explain oneself. Open-mindedness is a great thing, and is preached by so many Martial Artists as a principle, yet it seems that they don't want to follow their own advise.

[Sensei Rick]

well, how would you qualify this "respect" that is demanded. If someone wants you to control them with YOUR actions, (ie, bowing, saying uhs... or whatever) then go ahead, and control them. If you are polite and the think you're being respectful.... well, so be it, right?

Am i making any sense.

You are just doing an action, what ever that action may be, if they choose to think you are respectful or not, well that is inside them. They are not you and they have no idea what you are thinking. you are just performing a behavior of politeness.

[wingedMonkey]

Some Martial Artists don't deserve the Respect, but i believe everyone deserves respect until you see what they really are like...then you can make a choice wether not to respect them and be rude or just walk away.

[TraditionalDan]

Of course anyone can be of a respectful nature, but martial arts has taught me to be more that way. This is not say that I wouldn't be otherwise, but I feel this is the case.

The reasoning behind it is that I feel that being physically more confident in yourself (which martial arts training does), relaxes you around people and in general.

Which in turn helps you be more relaxed in the way you conduct yourself, which then rubs off on to many aspects of your personality.

I feel that martial arts training is a very effective (although not the only) way of helping a person becoming more 'respectful' in nature.

[username8517]

"Respect" should not be commanded or used as a crutch for not being able to explain oneself. Open-mindedness is a great thing, and is preached by so many Martial Artists as a principle, yet it seems that they don't want to follow their own advise.

Nice summation.

well, how would you qualify this "respect" that is demanded. If someone wants you to control them with YOUR actions, (ie, bowing, saying uhs... or whatever) then go ahead, and control them. If you are polite and the think you're being respectful.... well, so be it, right?

Am i making any sense.

You are just doing an action, what ever that action may be, if they choose to think you are respectful or not, well that is inside them. They are not you and they have no idea what you are thinking. you are just performing a behavior of politeness.

You are making sense; however I'm talking about a slightly different scenario. I'm not talking about formalities like bowing, which as you point out can merely be polite actions construed as respect by some.

I'm talking about respect that's being demanded as a crutch (thanks BM ) as a substitute for reasoning. For example, if someone were to join KF, and make a statement like "I do style ABC and it's the best!". I respond with "I don't think style ABC is that great because of X, Y, and/or Z." And then the original poster replies with "Well as a martial artist you should respect my style and what we do, even if it's different." This is the essence of my issue.

Rather than present their side of why I say a technique or theory is flawed is wrong and try to disprove my statement or change my belief as to why it's wrong, they take the "moral high road" by demanding my respect simply based on the fact I'm a martial artist.

Of course anyone can be of a respectful nature, but martial arts has taught me to be more that way. This is not say that I wouldn't be otherwise, but I feel this is the case.

Exactly my point. Respect is a quality of human being that martial arts can foster and help grow in those that want it to. But the two aren't mutually exclusive.

But the concept of respect in martial arts gets diluted by some that they think they must be tied together in an A == B equation