Value of grappling arts for self defense?

[cross]

Good points Bushido_Man, I agree with what your saying. I suppose submissions are always a good tool to have for moments when they are required.

[bushido_man96]

Good points Bushido_Man, I agree with what your saying. I suppose submissions are always a good tool to have for moments when they are required.

Yeah, it is just like anything. You put your tools in your box, and you use them when you need them.

[cross]

Very true.

[NightOwl]

Bah- I need a bigger tool set : (. Where do you train by the way cross? I'd like to experience it sometime if I could. I suppose that things like the psycological effects on an attacker as well as yourself are explored as well?

I think that a scenario like having some large drunk guy follow you from the bar (maybe we should all pick better bars? ) and manage to tackle you with the intent to ground and pound/rape/mug etc. would call for some fancy groundwork. A gang would be different but- I really wish I had statistics on muggings and assaults and how many people are involved/what weapons. Anyhow, you could always imagine the scenario where he has two friends, they both have guns, and there is a rampaging dinosaur coming at you (Mick Jagger on some sort of a binge)- but when shown a technique in class, you always have that one guy (many times me ) who will ask, ' But what if he does THIS'. Many times it is a legitimate question, however sometimes it just boils down to, ' What if he is better than me and there is nothing that I can do that will work?'

[cross]

Bah- I need a bigger tool set : (. Where do you train by the way cross? I'd like to experience it sometime if I could. I suppose that things like the psycological effects on an attacker as well as yourself are explored as well?

I train at my house mostly with a couple of likeminded friends, sometimes on my own. Being that i live in a reasonably remote area that only have tkd and karate schools with no real depth of instruction in anything else.

Its very possible to train this kind of stuff on your own if you have the right research material and mindset being that technical "perfection" is not really the aim of the training, functionality can always be improved and most of the psychological stuff you can do without someone around also.

Obviously having a teacher available would be the best option, but its not an option for everyone. Attending seminars in the nearest big cities is something i try to do when the right people come to town.

Its very liberating to be able to do exactly what you want in training to best achieve your goals. And not be bound by any one style or system. The internet makes it very easy to research and find the best information on any topic you could think of. Rather than having to settle for the school down the road because its the only one in town.

Having the correct tools for the job is important. But also its important to narrow down your collection to the ones you use most often and cover the most situations you are likely to face.

[bushido_man96]

but when shown a technique in class, you always have that one guy (many times me ) who will ask, ' But what if he does THIS'. Many times it is a legitimate question, however sometimes it just boils down to, ' What if he is better than me and there is nothing that I can do that will work?'

What is nice about the out-of-class training is that you can take a move and start with it, then, after getting comfortable with it, you can start asking what if this? and what if that? happens, and then you can work out scenarios where you explore the usage of the technique in "chaos."

[NightOwl]

yeah, but in that case it helps to have MA junkie friends...almost all 'civilians' in my circle of who's who

[cross]

yeah, but in that case it helps to have MA junkie friends...almost all 'civilians' in my circle of who's who

Yeah that helps. Doesnt have to have anything to do with MA though, just people male or female that are interested in learning to protect themselves. Cut the MA, do the research and focus on practicallity.

[ps1]

I would say that chokes are certainly more effective than any other submissions. The reason for that is they can completely incapacitate the attacker. It takes only a few seconds for a properly applied choke to work.

In ideal circumstances it might take 2-3 seconds to work, but in realistically it would probably take alot longer with a setup, then struggling to sink it in etc. And that assumes you sink it correctly. All time that you could be getting stomped by his friends, allowing him to pull a weapon if your commiting both hands/arms to the choke, or you could spend it doing something else like getting up, or striking to cause pain/compliance instantly.

The second types of effective submissions would be kneebars, ankle locks, toe holds and heel hooks. This is because they are performed at distance from the opponents grip and leave the opponent with a very limited capacity for movement afterward.

In a high danger situation, perhaps. If you have the presence of mind and finesse to pull those off, then i can see how they would work. But consider a bar fight, does it really warrent causing ligament damage or breaking bones? Or a group attack, or 1 guy with a weapon, do you have the time, situational positioning to perform such a technique? When you could be getting back up and increasing your chances of escaping?

I certainly understand what you're saying. However, the same argument can be made about any type of technique. This is why we train over and over again.

Boxing punches are probably the best way to punch an attacker (they can be easily modified to use palm heel also). However, just knowing them isn't enough to make them effective. They must be trained.

Many people like to use the natural startle reactions of the human body. That's a great idea and works. However, what you do afterward must be trained.

No matter how you cut it or what system you choose to study, it is always about creating and utilizing habits. You want to get rid of the poor habits and re form what are considered better habits. In the end, whoever has the best habits will win in a one on one situation. Having good habits such as avoiding being out by yourself, not being impaired, avoiding bad situations make your chances even better.

As far as sinking in a choke...it's not difficult. Very large guys come in all the time and always want to demonstrate how tough they think they are. Now this is far from a deadly situation of course. But I find the chokes are the easiest thing to get. Many people have the natural habit to turn away from strikes, which gives up the back. Within a moment I can have a normal, untrained, tough guy incapacitated. Start us on the feet and it happens even more quickly (one good low line round house can often put them on their 4th point of contact).

As far as breaking bones/ harming ligaments in a bar fight...yes. That's one of the most dangerous situations to be in. Bottles flying and an unknown set of enemies...you need to dispatch with threats quickly on your way to the door. I'd prefer not to go to the ground in that type of situation. To that end, it's not really fair to ask about ground grappling when you're talking about a bar fight. Clinch work is probably more effective in that situation.

Keep in mind, a smart Jiujitsu fighter only uses ground techniques when he's on the ground. And they are easily used against someone who doesn't understand the art.

I really understand where you're coming from in your arguments. 10 years ago I actually wrote a 12 page paper on "Why grappling is ineffective." That was before I actually experienced it first hand. Now BJJ is incorporated into my personal fighting style.

[cross]

Many people like to use the natural startle reactions of the human body. That's a great idea and works. However, what you do afterward must be trained.

Thanks for the reply PS1. I was an advocate for using the startle response in self defense, but after having researched the startle response in a fair amount of detail i have come to the conclusion that it doesnt really play that great a part in the whole self protection picture, rather having solid basic defensive techniques that cover a number of attacks is far more benificial and will provide greater protection in a situation. So i agree with what your are saying below:

No matter how you cut it or what system you choose to study, it is always about creating and utilizing habits. You want to get rid of the poor habits and re form what are considered better habits. In the end, whoever has the best habits will win in a one on one situation. Having good habits such as avoiding being out by yourself, not being impaired, avoiding bad situations make your chances even better.

I really understand where you're coming from in your arguments. 10 years ago I actually wrote a 12 page paper on "Why grappling is ineffective." That was before I actually experienced it first hand. Now BJJ is incorporated into my personal fighting style.

Its not that i think all grappling is ineffective. Just the "take it to the ground, pull guard and go for the armbar" mindset that is seen throughout alot of schools. Ive always agreed that grappling and groundfighting is a crucial part of self defense, just how its trained and the emphasis might be different.

Thanks again for the reply, you raise some very interesting points.