Dans

[WudangDragon]

First off, let me say I am, and always have been, predominantly a Chinese Martial Artist (and therefore have no use of the Dan system) - I realise this is no excuse for my ignorance but perhaps you wont think of me too harshly - after all, we all here seek knowledge, right?

So to the point - I know what a Dan is (or at least I beleive I do); A certain grade or level of black belt, moving progressively upwards numerically to differentiate between them - 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th ( Ni Dan, San Dan, Yo Dan, Go Dan) etc.

However, I don't know the actual difference. I always assumed (pre-martial arts experience) that a black belt "knew" all the techniques in a style, and that was that. This method of thinking still holds to a degree, possibly due to my training in Gung Fu (either with no sashes, or with black sash being highest).

Is therefore, the difference between Shodan and Nidan further refinement of one's movements? A deeper understanding of the art? Or are there new techniques/movements/forms to be learned?

I thank you all for any and all feedback

Peace.

Edited September 27, 2007 by WudangDragon

[The BB of C]

It depends on the style.

[ps1]

To start, it's important to remember how new the belt and dan system is. Jigoro Kano created it in order to better standardize how to know a person's skill level.

As Kano was the founder of the art (Judo), it was decided that no student could ever outrank him. As more and more students earned black belt, the dan ranks were added in order to keep their teachers above them (regardless of actual skill level). Kano finally halted the insanity at 10th dan. His students wanted to elevate him to 11th dan, but he refused.

Since that time, nearly every martial art has adopted the rank system in some manner or another. For the most part, the dan ranks up to about 3rd or 4th dan can be used to determine who is actually more skilled (usually because these people are still in their physical prime and able to execute a larger range of techniques with a high degree of skill). As you go up to 5th degree and beyond, the skill level is usually (I repeat usually) not necessarily higher. However, the insight into the finer points of the art are often better understood by the higher ranking people due to a larger experience level.

I hope that helps a little.

[armanox]

It depends on the style.

In most styles I've seen a lot of time all of the basic techiniques are known by the time one reaches black belt. For the lower dan ranks (2 - 4 let's say) there still may be new forms, new weapons, etc; but nothing fundamently new. Also techinque refinement and perhaps combonations may be required. Often times for the middle dan ranks (5 - 7 let's say) teaching experience (as an assistant) is needed to advance. The upper dan ranks are usually special, reserved for instructors who have distinguished themselves, people who've been in the art for 50+ years, people who have students reached the middle levels or are now teaching on their own, etc. But, as BB of C said, it will vary with style.

[Zanshin]

Is therefore, the difference between Shodan and Nidan further refinement of one's movements? A deeper understanding of the art? Or are there new techniques/movements/forms to be learned?

Yes, all of the above.

[bushido_man96]

Even after earning First Dan, I still learn new forms and material. You think that you learn most of it, but then things get presented a bit differently, and it makes you think more. So, you have all of the techniques, but you just apply them differently.

A lot of it has to do with further refinement of technique. There are always very minute things to work on, However, more of it has to do with being able to transfer your knowledge to others as well. The higher your rank, then the more people expect you to be able to represent your style via discussion and demonstration.

Another, and perhaps the most important aspect, of attaining higher Dan ranks is the propogation of the style. As one raises in rank, he can begin to help promote and advance his style, analyze things that can be made better, and things like this. Time-in-rank helps with gaining this experience, and the more things you do (teach, compete, etc.) then the more experience you get.

[bushido_man96]

As Kano was the founder of the art (Judo), it was decided that no student could ever outrank him. As more and more students earned black belt, the dan ranks were added in order to keep their teachers above them (regardless of actual skill level). Kano finally halted the insanity at 10th dan. His students wanted to elevate him to 11th dan, but he refused.

That is an interesting piece of history that I was not aware of. Thanks for sharing, ps1.

[ninjanurse]

I always assumed (pre-martial arts experience) that a black belt "knew" all the techniques in a style, and that was that. This method of thinking still holds to a degree, possibly due to my training in Gung Fu (either with no sashes, or with black sash being highest).

Is therefore, the difference between Shodan and Nidan further refinement of one's movements? A deeper understanding of the art? Or are there new techniques/movements/forms to be learned?

I thank you all for any and all feedback

Peace.

One can never know everything or understand all that there is. A dan grade represents years of experience and study, a certain knowledge base (and expectation of skill), and contributions made to the art.

[Menjo]

Shotokan Dan Ranking

These are the rules that the JKA goes by for dan rankings. Certain amount of years have to be spent in each aswell.

2nd Dan

"Examiners test for understanding and proficiency in the foundational techniques of karate."

3rd Dan

"Examiners test for understanding and proficiency in the standard techniques of karate."

4th Dan

"Examiners test for understanding and mastery of all karate techniques; for an understanding of the philosophy of karate; for an ability to apply these fundamentals and functional aspects in practice; and for an ability to instruct"

5th Dan

"Examiners test for high-level mastery of karate techniques, and the ability to apply technique in one’s own unique way"

6th and 7th Dan

"Must demonstrate extensive, matured mastery of both the physical and mental aspects of karate training"

8th 9th and 10th Dan

"Must demonstrate total mastery of karate, both physical and mental, and show an extraordinary level of spiritual development"

***Also a 1st Dan usually isnt required to preform Unsu for thier 2nd Dan grading. Katas used instead are the four basic starting black belt kata, with a choice to choose several more if you know them.

The katas are grouped up according to difficulty and I think until 3rd or 4th is the practitioner supposed to be completely ready for any kata.

[YoungMan]

I will use the Kukkiwon system of Dan ranking for example.

1. 1st through 3rd Dan is considered a junior level black belt. At this stage, you are concerned with using Tae Kwon Do to develop good self defense, free fighting, form, and other physical attibutes. You may teach, but only under the auspices of your Instructor. As you go from 1st Dan to 3rd Dan, your physical technique should become as good as it will ever get.

2. 4th through 5th Dan is considered Master Instructor, and you may now teach your own class. Within the auspices of whatever organization you belong to, but not answering to another Master Intructor. You must now develop and promote the well being of your organization.

3. 6th Dan is one who begins to promote Tae Kwon Do at the national level and develop national credibility. Going to seminars, teaching, officiating and organizing tournaments, developing national TKD policy

4. 7th, 8th, and 9th Dan is one who is active in Tae Kwon Do at the world level, going to international events, seminars, meetings, and developing programs Instructors in other countries use.