Forms/Kata

[tallgeese]

Taylor, I agree with your point about the meditative aspects of training being essintial in the fact that one needs to be as relaxed as poissible during conflict. It's a good point and I think, as you do, that this is probibly more important that technical ability alone.

However, I think our methods for this differ. I'm not certain that either of us is right or wrong, but certainly we see two differnt paths to this goal.

I think that the optimal state of performance during a fight, that a degree of controlled emotion is needed for can indeed be trained for. Instead of doing kata for this however, I think that the use of sparring and sparring type self defense drills is much more practical. It places you in a facsimile of the situation for which your training. It is fluid and ever changing, making you compenstate by applying your skills in a spontanious enviornment. Additionally, you are preparing for combat by acclimitizing your body and mind to a state of heightened violence, something that kata cannot do.

I agree as well that in the older, more authentic forms, there are probibly lessons to be learned that were not passed down just waiting to be discovered. My point is that human physiology hasn't changed that much since fuedal Japan, if the movement was functional then it probibly still is now and since we are an industrious and violent species, we've probilily found out how to do it all over again. It's the time spent uncovering it that I see as less than optimal. That is time that could be spent repping a proven movement over and over again to make it that much more functional for you.

Again, I think we agree on quite a bit. It's just interesting to note and debate the differences in the paths we're taking to try and find the same place.

[Taylor]

No problem. I'd just recommend this conversation be taken up with one's Sensei rather than here.

[bushido_man96]

Sometimes the 'why' didn't get passed down for some reason. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I think we honor our predecessors by thinking long and hard for many years about the why behind something BEFORE changing it. In many traditions, you can't change an art's methods and curriculum too much unless you reach the high master rank. I think there is a lot of intelligence and wisdom behind this policy.

Sometimes, this policy leads to the "that's how I learned it, so that is how you will learn it" attitude, which isn't always healthy.

Some things simply don't seem very practical but are VERY practical, actually, but you have to experience it. That's why a lot of martial arts instructors will listen to your arguments, smile and say, "Okay, 20 more repetitions." In most cases this isn't a punishment for disobedience, but an attempt to give you the answer. Do you notice how in modern times we are addicted to having an answer we can intellectualize? But in martial arts training, don't you notice how you learn a different kind of thinking, not so linear, not so 'heady' not always as 'logical', but once you see it and feel it in action, it makes perfect sense?

This is kind of tricky here. I kind of see what you are getting at, but I don't understand it well. My point is that everyone learns in a different manner. If an instructor can only relate things in one manner, then he is not going to be able to reach as many students as he could. It is ok to ask "why?" because we want to know. There is always more than one way to skin a cat. Kata training has been one of those ways. When my DT partner and I do training, it doesn't come from kata. It comes from hands on experience, Q&A, and then more experience.

Katas can be good. Other ways can be good, too.

[bushido_man96]

I think that the optimal state of performance during a fight, that a degree of controlled emotion is needed for can indeed be trained for. Instead of doing kata for this however, I think that the use of sparring and sparring type self defense drills is much more practical. It places you in a facsimile of the situation for which your training. It is fluid and ever changing, making you compenstate by applying your skills in a spontanious enviornment. Additionally, you are preparing for combat by acclimitizing your body and mind to a state of heightened violence, something that kata cannot do.

I think that this is an important aspect that gets overlooked many times in many schools, mine included. Sure, we spar, but it is with tournament rules, and it doesn't do much for putting you in a crappy situation that raises the adrenaline levels. It is easy to picture enemies while doing a form, and to do it with intensity, but you still don't get the same adrenale feeling.

My point is that human physiology hasn't changed that much since fuedal Japan, if the movement was functional then it probibly still is now and since we are an industrious and violent species, we've probilily found out how to do it all over again.

This is something that I have discovered in my research of Medieval European Combat. There are many techniques that can be seen in the old manuals that mirror techniques that many believe to have originated in the Orient. This is just not the case.

[bushido_man96]

If a movment drill is engraining poor habits, then it's worth should be suspect. The case I always point to is the long stances and the hands chambered at the waist. It's poor body mechanics for a real fight. Continually pressing your body into that muscle memeory will ensure that you're only making the situation worse in a fight.

I would normally agree with this statement. However, I have noticed that I do not have this problem when I spar or do self defense work. I always do a pretty good job of keeping my hands up at these times. Sometimes I have been able to use the pulling back actions of the arms in some applications. I also do decent jab/cross combinations while not pulling the opposite hand back to the ribs.

[cross]

Cross made the point ealier that any movement drill is better than nothing (something to that effect, sorry if that's not entirely accurate). I have to disagree here.

Thats taken a little out of context, what i actually said was:

Doing something is always better than doing nothing. However, motion that teaches your body to do one thing, when you should be doing another, is not beneficial, its detrimental to progress, causes contradiction of ideas and confusion.

So you can see i basically agree with everything you have said.

[cross]

If a movment drill is engraining poor habits, then it's worth should be suspect. The case I always point to is the long stances and the hands chambered at the waist. It's poor body mechanics for a real fight. Continually pressing your body into that muscle memeory will ensure that you're only making the situation worse in a fight.

I would normally agree with this statement. However, I have noticed that I do not have this problem when I spar or do self defense work. I always do a pretty good job of keeping my hands up at these times. Sometimes I have been able to use the pulling back actions of the arms in some applications. I also do decent jab/cross combinations while not pulling the opposite hand back to the ribs.

I have found my experience to be similar to yours here bushido_man, after doing karate for 6 years and training with hand on hip i dont have any problem keeping my hands up, that however is largely due to training constantly with hands up doing boxing/kickboxing. It doesnt really effect you if you have trained to keep your hands up, but i have seen alot of people with my old karate class who couldnt keep their hands up to save themselves and it all comes from the bad training habit of pulling the hand to the hip.

[tallgeese]

Well, there I go skimming posts again , sorry for the mis-read cross.

[bushido_man96]

I have found my experience to be similar to yours here bushido_man, after doing karate for 6 years and training with hand on hip i dont have any problem keeping my hands up, that however is largely due to training constantly with hands up doing boxing/kickboxing. It doesnt really effect you if you have trained to keep your hands up, but i have seen alot of people with my old karate class who couldnt keep their hands up to save themselves and it all comes from the bad training habit of pulling the hand to the hip.

I do admit that I have made a habit out of training with my hands up when not doing forms or basics. My dad always drilled that into me, too.

[cross]

I think its not such a problem if each method is taught and the context of both is known. I.e. hand on comes to the hip when it is holding onto something. All other times its guard up.