Forms/Kata

[AikiGuy]

I disagree that drill practice and katas are the same thing. I know this can spark its own debate, but I really don't think they are the same thing. Just my opinion, though.

Well they are and they aren't. I'm not saying they are identical or interchangeable. I'm just saying they are two different methods for accomplishing the same (or at very least similar) goals. Kata and drill practice (let's say shadow boxing since it is the most similar) both require repetition, give a fighter a level of comfort with the movements, and provide muscle memory. If my boxing instructor says drill a combo of jab-jab-cross-cover-hook-uppercut, and I do that 100 times in a row, it will be similar to going to Karate class and doing a portion of a kata that calls for a similar sequence. Of course there are differences in the movements included, stances, and other variations due to the style of fighting you choose. But that aside, they both attempt to improve your proficiency at a number of moves. Then you can use them in sequence, out of order, one at a time, or in any combination you want. I see the benefits to mind, body, and reflexes to be pretty much the same thing.

Also let me say that I have cross trained in Boxing and MT for a short while so I have experienced the results of some of their drills and other training methods first hand. I never saw some of these similarities until I actually did them. I have also sparred with boxers and I now see the benefit for some of their movements that seemed odd to me before. I am just a novice at boxing but I have many examples of how their fighting and training methods parallel those of a martial artist. If anyone wants some specific examples, just ask and I will be happy to share some of them for discussion.

Edited October 16, 2007 by AikiGuy

[bushido_man96]

I see what you are saying, AikiGuy. Drills don't tend to be as static and unchanging as forms do. You can alter a drill, and it is no big deal. But if you try to alter a "form," you may get chastized for it.

[AikiGuy]

I see what you are saying, AikiGuy. Drills don't tend to be as static and unchanging as forms do. You can alter a drill, and it is no big deal. But if you try to alter a "form," you may get chastized for it.

Yeah, I guess that counts as one obvious difference. Katas are preset and not to be altered. Boxing drills may change daily. That definitely makes them more versatile. Of course with katas, you can always just do a different kata for variation, but even then you are still somewhat limited. So they are not perfect.

On a side note, my dojo also does sparring drills similar to shadow boxing. As much as I like katas and recognize their attempt to do the same thing as drills, it is helpful to supplement the training with some freestyle drills.

[ps1]

I can ride the fence here. I enjoy forms, but I could do without them, too. I much prefer application training. If that is done with the forms, then great. But there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Ditto. I enjoy them very much. But that doesn't mean I need to use them to teach someone how to defend themselves.

[bigscottius]

Hmm... this worries me alot. I'm going into shotokan!!!! I think katas are useful, like shadowboxing, but they are only a very small part of the equation to make a complete fighter (or karate practitioner). So, now I'm worried because I keep thinking I'll only do Katas and not actually do anything practical. But then again, this is the only good school in my area that i've found!!! I DON'T WANT TO BE DOOMED TO A LIFE TIME OF KATAS I don't mind them, but I want to practice other stuff too.

[bushido_man96]

Hmm... this worries me alot. I'm going into shotokan!!!! I think katas are useful, like shadowboxing, but they are only a very small part of the equation to make a complete fighter (or karate practitioner). So, now I'm worried because I keep thinking I'll only do Katas and not actually do anything practical. But then again, this is the only good school in my area that i've found!!! I DON'T WANT TO BE DOOMED TO A LIFE TIME OF KATAS I don't mind them, but I want to practice other stuff too.

I wouldn't worry too much about that yet, Scott. In the beginning, you will most likely do more kata than sparring, just until you get some of the basics down. Then, when your instructor feels that you are ready, you will probably begin sparring.

Don't judge to soon, though. It may end up being what you want.

[tengu-raven]

I would just like to hear everyones opinions on the advantages and disadvantages of forms in a system. Personally at the moment I hate them although I am not training currently( hopefully I will be again in a few weeks) and was one of the reasons for leaving my style although I know most style incorporate them so I guess I will have to live with them either way.

Just like to know your thoughts on this

Thanks

J

the advantages of learning a form are numerous. such as learning proper technique and putting all the material together. kata to be specific offer stretching and some degree of isometric excersise. the effort ot learn and do kata is essential to karate.

the greatest disadvantages are that some dojo focus too much on kata and little else. also there are too many dojo which dont teach or know the bunkai therof. then you have schools of whatever martial art with very low standards. not learning kata properly in terms of application and proper form is a waste of time.

far as naysayers go i would recall the words of master funakoshi that practice of kata should be exact yet combat is a different matter. the kata are like a book the application is what you take in harms way.

[troy]

I believe kata is a very important part of martial arts.Some may disagree with this sentiment but the true core to your martial arts is in the accurate applications involving stance,kicking,punching,and blocking. Here are some exceptional katas below...http://youtube.com/watch?v=H9UrMOPVHW4

[tallgeese]

I've got to vote in the no catagory here.

Cross made the point ealier that any movement drill is better than nothing (something to that effect, sorry if that's not entirely accurate). I have to disagree here.

If a movment drill is engraining poor habits, then it's worth should be suspect. The case I always point to is the long stances and the hands chambered at the waist. It's poor body mechanics for a real fight. Continually pressing your body into that muscle memeory will ensure that you're only making the situation worse in a fight.

Here's the thing, we don't need to hide these movments anymore as my understaning of why kata was developed goes. Not to mention that the vast amount of forms done today have no ancient origin but are only a few decades old in their current state of evolution.

Warfare evolves. Training for warfare evolves. Continual experimenation is key to continued growth and too many times that's what kata is preventing. I'm not saying that they're aren't schools and arts that to both, there's plenty. I'm just saying that time spent on kata is time that could be spent on sparring, drilling on mitts or bags, one steps if they're your thing, or any number of other trianing tools that present more tangable results.

Just my thoughts, no disrespect intended.

[Taylor]

I used to resent how Master Kim made me do some stupid 'impractial' technique over and over again. But later, that training came out in some unexpected ways, saving my behind, usually. I didn't resent him after that, I tell you!

Sometimes tradition should be changed, but sometimes there are reasons that methods have remained the same for so many years. I don't think it's good to so quickly discount the intelligence of our predecessors. Certainly, evolving an art is a good thing, but many attempts at this in modern times have downgraded excellent things by too quickly changing methodology just because we don't UNDERSTAND why. We credit our modern thinking too much. We aren't necessarily more 'enlightened' just because we have better technology.

Sometimes the 'why' didn't get passed down for some reason. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I think we honor our predecessors by thinking long and hard for many years about the why behind something BEFORE changing it. In many traditions, you can't change an art's methods and curriculum too much unless you reach the high master rank. I think there is a lot of intelligence and wisdom behind this policy.

Some things simply don't seem very practical but are VERY practical, actually, but you have to experience it. That's why a lot of martial arts instructors will listen to your arguments, smile and say, "Okay, 20 more repetitions." In most cases this isn't a punishment for disobedience, but an attempt to give you the answer. Do you notice how in modern times we are addicted to having an answer we can intellectualize? But in martial arts training, don't you notice how you learn a different kind of thinking, not so linear, not so 'heady' not always as 'logical', but once you see it and feel it in action, it makes perfect sense? You can't always intellectualize it to someone else, either, if you notice. A person can easily argue you down with words, even though you've seen it in action. You might really KNOW because you experienced it, but someone else will have their intellectual ideas about it and tell you you're full of crap. So this is where I think forms is headed. Forms teach you many important things. If you don't want to practice them, don't. But there's a lot in them, practically speaking. Does it have to be something you can intellectualize to be 'practical'? You guys make some pretty darn good cases against their practice, and I don't think I can verbalize why you're wrong in a way you wouldn't negate, but let me ask you this, do you negate your Sensei also? If so, why? Why not do what your Sensei says and let the form do the speaking? This is how martial art 'instruction' has communicated it's points from time immemorable. 'Reasons' were discovered, not intellectualized so much, and there is great intelligence and wisdom in that. Practice them diligently for 15 more years and then argue this point... but by then I think the forms will have done the job of making the point.

Edited May 15, 2008 by Taylor