Self defense for (academic) students

[The BB of C]

I would prefer a situation where the kid attacked would have the right to punch the attacker after he initiated the fight, not have him wait to have the attacker punch him. Unfortunately that doesn't seem likely to be allowed, so I would go for grappling techniques in such a situation - which is more or less what you did. I would probably be careful of applying a submission technique because there's a lot of misinformation about chokes and the school administration could well accuse you of trying to kill the kid, and he's not going to know to tap to a joint lock. Then again, you might be able to hold an arm lock at a degree where it's painful but not going to break - up to you really. If there is a likelihood of a teacher coming quickly, I would just try to get a dominant and/or restraining position, eg: mount him, mount his back, get my hooks in and possibly S-grip or maybe a full nelson, or my personal favourite, the kneeride, because if you do it correctly, you can push all your weight through your knee into his diaphragm and have him struggle for breath, you're set up to armbar either arm if you wish, and you can easily jump up, or push the knee through and go to full mount, or go to side control.

Using Columbine to justify a no self-defence policy seems very questionable to me. If you look at the common themes of the perpetrators of school shootings, the biggest ones are a feeling of alienation, of being oppressed, and being bullied. Punishing kids for fighting off bullies seems a great way to push a borderline kid over the edge.

I like the second part of your post a lot and it answered my question. But the first part wasn't my question at all. I was just saying that I helped break up the fight (the technique worked in what I wanted to do and I would have been able to switch at any time if I needed to) and I was asking what you thought of the fact that someone is basically not allowed to defend themselves.

Did the "attacker" get expelled for breaking the zero tolerance policy?

Five days of out-of-school suspension.

...good job in helping out that kid BB of C

Ed

First off, good for you for breaking the situation up. Its also good that the guy you pulled off didn't take after you for stopping him.

Thank you I was actually surprised that I was able to react that way. I always tell myself to do that but I never really get a chance to train the instinct.

What needs to be in place is a process that interrogates each of the students to analyze what caused the situation to take place. That way, each student could have been evaluated and punished accordingly. However, as scared as some administrative professionals may be of liability suits, I don't know if it will change or not.

That's the point I made to the teacher I got in a debate with about that last week.

You guys talking about being in high school 10 years ago, but acting all "old" had better shut up before you tick me off.

Had my 20 yr reunion a couple years ago.

Owned

[armanox]

I went to a high school with a "Zero Tolarance" Policy on fighting. There were a few issues with that though -the local law here defines an action as self defense and not as a fight if either of the following are met - The aggressor has attacked twice, the aggressor attacked and left a mark, witnesses are present to verify that the aggressor engaged the defender in such a way that the defended needed to respond (grapped shirt and about to apply a fist to the face, for example); and also requires that the defender only acted in such away to remove themselves from danger quickly (joint locks, throws, punch and run, submission holds, etc). So, even though they said that in any form of encounter the police would be involved, people arrested, etc; the extent that they could do that was limited.

On another note, they didn't bother with me or my friends for all of our sparring matches, which drew crowds as though it were a fight at times.

[Sensei Rick]

This topic is a very dear and frustrating one to me. I too am a bit older (42) and I am old school in many aspects of my life.

I remember getting paddled in class!!, by my fifth grade teacher. All in total i recieved about 6 swats in my school career. I wear them as a badge f honor that contributed to my character developement.

I can remember the start of the " Wimpification of America" In eighth grade I got into a small scuffle in my reading class. We got sent to the office by our teacher who was a little old lady but wasn't taking any poo from anybody. In the office I was given an option: 1 swat or.... 2 days suspension!!(woohoo!!!) I chose suspension..... who wouldn't... I could cruise around all day and not worry about the truant officer. They had to call your parents though, and mom made me the the swat.

My wife is a school psychologist and works in a title school here in phoenix. I hear all the time about bad students going unpunished and how they can't do anything about it any more, and how teachers used to be barrbaric and how Sorry she feels for me and what happened to me was wrong blah blah blah. There was even a day when 2 girls, 10 years old, left campus, and broke into a car, stole stuff out of it... and that car was in a parking lot of a bar!!! They didn't get a swat

So now I have students in this world. I have one that is a great fighter. He is rather small for his age and it's easy to see why he is attracted to MA. He is such a great fighter, speed and power and he thinks his way thru matches, never sloppy... blah blah blah. Well, one day he was a target of a school bully. they beat him up. hit him over and over, and he didn't fight back. not at all. Hearing the recount of the story, I was heart broken. I love this kid and I could tell he was even embarrassed by what had happened. When I asked him what happened, why did he just stand there, he said he didn't want to get suspended and didn't want to misuse his karate. I did my best to explain the difference and build him back up etc.. but I can't fight the world that he lives in. A time out world. A world where students can talk back to teachers and they have to take it. (which kept my from becoming a public school teacher) A world in which you get punished for defending yourself.

Punishment for defending yourself..... How can a kid in 6th grade see the bigger picture in these situations. When I talk about misusing your karate now, I talk about not practicing on mom's couch, not kicking your dog... etc. This "time out world", with no more spankings, contributes to these bad school shootings to. These children are raised without consequences. They never have accountability and as you know children will always test your boundaries. So why not shoot everyone in your school, they're a minor and they'll be on the streets as soon as they turn 18. ( I KNOW THIS IS EXTREME BUT IT ILLUSTRATES MY POINT)I love this quote that I heard on a pod cast. "you can spank your children, or the world will" Show your kids you love them parents, when they get out of line, spank them back into line.

[The BB of C]

Sensei Rick, you are now my new best friend

[Existence_is _suffering]

Yeah, I had a pretty much no-tolerance policy at my school too (the last one I went to). As a matter of fact, my little brother had been bullied for months actually faught back against one, so they rang my mother and asked her to come in for a chat and told her (even though they knew this was going on for a while) that my brother was in more trouble than the bully because he should of told a teacher (he had like three times apparently, got the "tattle-tale" speech etc)... My mother was that enraged/amazed that she stopped arguing and walked out on them... Ridiculous huh?!

Sensei Rick, you are now my new best friend

Seconded

[gzk]

This topic is a very dear and frustrating one to me. I too am a bit older (42) and I am old school in many aspects of my life.

I remember getting paddled in class!!, by my fifth grade teacher. All in total i recieved about 6 swats in my school career. I wear them as a badge f honor that contributed to my character developement.

I can remember the start of the " Wimpification of America" In eighth grade I got into a small scuffle in my reading class. We got sent to the office by our teacher who was a little old lady but wasn't taking any poo from anybody. In the office I was given an option: 1 swat or.... 2 days suspension!!(woohoo!!!) I chose suspension..... who wouldn't... I could cruise around all day and not worry about the truant officer. They had to call your parents though, and mom made me the the swat.

My wife is a school psychologist and works in a title school here in phoenix. I hear all the time about bad students going unpunished and how they can't do anything about it any more, and how teachers used to be barrbaric and how Sorry she feels for me and what happened to me was wrong blah blah blah. There was even a day when 2 girls, 10 years old, left campus, and broke into a car, stole stuff out of it... and that car was in a parking lot of a bar!!! They didn't get a swat

So now I have students in this world. I have one that is a great fighter. He is rather small for his age and it's easy to see why he is attracted to MA. He is such a great fighter, speed and power and he thinks his way thru matches, never sloppy... blah blah blah. Well, one day he was a target of a school bully. they beat him up. hit him over and over, and he didn't fight back. not at all. Hearing the recount of the story, I was heart broken. I love this kid and I could tell he was even embarrassed by what had happened. When I asked him what happened, why did he just stand there, he said he didn't want to get suspended and didn't want to misuse his karate. I did my best to explain the difference and build him back up etc.. but I can't fight the world that he lives in. A time out world. A world where students can talk back to teachers and they have to take it. (which kept my from becoming a public school teacher) A world in which you get punished for defending yourself.

Punishment for defending yourself..... How can a kid in 6th grade see the bigger picture in these situations. When I talk about misusing your karate now, I talk about not practicing on mom's couch, not kicking your dog... etc. This "time out world", with no more spankings, contributes to these bad school shootings to. These children are raised without consequences. They never have accountability and as you know children will always test your boundaries. So why not shoot everyone in your school, they're a minor and they'll be on the streets as soon as they turn 18. ( I KNOW THIS IS EXTREME BUT IT ILLUSTRATES MY POINT)I love this quote that I heard on a pod cast. "you can spank your children, or the world will" Show your kids you love them parents, when they get out of line, spank them back into line.

You make a number of good points, the most important of which I think is about consequences, which I don't believe has to involve spanking. I see many parents who, as children, only experienced consequences for their behaviour when they were spanked, and are now being told that it is "unasseptable", resulting in them having no idea how to discipline their children. Perhaps if they had been raised experiencing real consequences other than spanking, that situation would now be different. None of the behaviours you list (talking back to teachers, stealing, etc.) require spanking to correct.

It's interesting you mention self-defence. Other than the obvious "if I do that again I will be hurt" lesson, spanking also teaches children that those who assume authority have the right to use violence when others breach arbitrary conditions - pretty much the opposite to self-defence.

If you are a good enough parent to use the deterrent value of spanking and smooth over the psychological effects later, good luck to you. It made me a well-behaved, but timid (easy meat for bullies had I been smaller) child who, much of the time, feared and loathed his parents and had a deep distrust of authority.