My experience with kung fu

[JerryLove]

Did you want some specific complaints? I'd start with the standard hand poitions (one forehead height and fully extended, the other heart height and extended to the elbow). From that position, the hands themselves are easy targets, particularly in an arme encounter. In my experience sparring with Wing-Chun practitioners, they did not adapt the had posture to deal with my attacking the limbs. This could be a failiing of the half-dozen or so people I have interacted with in this manner; but presently consider it a flaw in the underlying Wing-Chun strategy.

 

I can be specific on other issues as well.

[HarvesterofSorrow]

fully extended? odd, we dont do that, well not at my kwoon. I see no pont in fully extending the arm when the gaurd is up. Other issues? Enlighten me.

[Shaolin]

fully extended? odd, we dont do that, well not at my kwoon. I see no pont in fully extending the arm when the gaurd is up.

 

Yes many do but here's the crux of this issue.

 

1. The lead need not be extended in a Man Sao there is no requirement.

 

2. If the opponent is close enough to attack a limb the Man Sao should already be gone.

 

The extended Man Sao (Asking Hand) should only exist in a pre-engagement phase. If the opponent is close enough to be a threat the Wing Chun man should already be attacking – Man Sao should convert to something else - Wing Chun does not wait. An example of when a Man Sao might be applied is when fighting more than one person (yes this does happen.) If you take out the first opponent a Man Sao could be extended to clear and search your space for the next opponent or threat. Wing Chun is often a sightless system so the Man Sao may function as our eyes. Wing Chun does not assume that in the heat and flurry of battle one can easily see what is coming and react to it - it often must be felt and controlled.

 

JerryLove:

 

Please elaborate on the other issues you mentioned if possible.

 

Jim

[HarvesterofSorrow]

yeah what he said

[JerryLove]

1. The lead need not be extended in a Man Sao there is no requirement.

I must ask how you get springing / unbending from a hand which is not extended.

2. If the opponent is close enough to attack a limb the Man Sao should already be gone.

At the range one outstretched hand can reach another, one cannot yet kick to the body. That said, what is the point of a fighting posture that you drop before the fight could possibly begin... Also, what guard would you chose to adopt instead.

 

I cannot say I agree with "immediately attack" someone who is 6 feet away as a universal strategy. It is also not a strategy I have ever seen employed by either a Wing-Chin practitioner i have interacted with nor one in magazine articles. I am not aware of an attack WC uses from 1-2 steps out of kicking range.

The extended Man Sao (Asking Hand) should only exist in a pre-engagement phase. If the opponent is close enough to be a threat the Wing Chun man should already be attacking – Man Sao should convert to something else - Wing Chun does not wait.

At 1-2 past kicking, what should you convert to. At 5 feet, an opponent with a knife who has not yet presented an opening, you reommend charging?

Please elaborate on the other issues you mentioned if possible.

I will be happy to, but perhaps we should clear up one at a time.

[Shaolin]

1. The lead need not be extended in a Man Sao there is no requirement.

I must ask how you get springing / unbending from a hand which is not extended.

 

 

Okay are you sure you know enough about Wing Chun to go here? Have you studied the system? What is your background? I mean are we going into a temporal comparison of limb energy states or what? My arm can only be a 'spring' when there is a load on it.

 

2. If the opponent is close enough to attack a limb the Man Sao should already be gone.

At the range one outstretched hand can reach another, one cannot yet kick to the body. That said, what is the point of a fighting posture that you drop before the fight could possibly begin... Also, what guard would you chose to adopt instead.

 

 

 

 

Don't get this at all. 'Point of a posture?' You answered your own question. A posture is just that - a position that exists for a split second - an initial position - the Man Sao places the hand close to the opponent so, for example, whatever weapon it turns into has less of a distance to travel. I can't hurt you with a Man Sao. Also, If our hands are in contact I can not only kick your groin but your head with my instep - wouldn't but could. At a much greater distance I have seen some non Wing Chun fighters END a fight with a lunging straight blast let alone a kick. Be careful making assumptions about range it all depends on the fighter(s) - there are no fixed distances - i.e. 3 feet = kicking, etc. It sounds like your talking about a distance where you are not in range to attack my arm, which is the range we were discussing.

 

 

I cannot say I agree with "immediately attack" someone who is 6 feet away as a universal strategy. It is also not a strategy I have ever seen employed by either a Wing-Chin practitioner i have interacted with nor one in magazine articles. I am not aware of an attack WC uses from 1-2 steps out of kicking range.

 

 

Wing Chun attacks when the distance and angle is correct. What do we mean by attack? An attack begins when I move to you or you to me or both - the entry phase.

 

The extended Man Sao (Asking Hand) should only exist in a pre-engagement phase. If the opponent is close enough to be a threat the Wing Chun man should already be attacking – Man Sao should convert to something else - Wing Chun does not wait.

At 1-2 past kicking, what should you convert to. At 5 feet, an opponent with a knife who has not yet presented an opening, you reommend charging?

 

 

The recommended guard, though this is a misnomer, is with both hands aligned on the Centerline, the closest a fist or so away from the body with fingers pointing ahead and the lead is the same except 'parked' right in front of the other. But again a 'guard; sounds like we wait - we do not. There are many variables to consider upon entry - distance - angle - state-of-mind of the enemy - number of enemies - a whole different thread - this topic was about your personal criticisms of the system and Man Sao. If you 'spar' with Wing Chun people then I must assume that they all have a tendency to 'shoot' Wing Chun men are trained for the inside and they go in ASAP - we do not need an 'opening' we only need a target. If our tool is 'blocked' we have a bridge and we stick and follow - if they move we face and re-attack. At the distance Man Sao would become a target for you, you would already be a target - that simple. 'The attacking hand defends'

 

[JerryLove]

Okay are you sure you know enough about Wing Chun to go here? Have you studied the system? What is your background?

Ad Hominim logical fallacy, let's try to stay on topic.

I mean are we going into a temporal comparison of limb energy states or what? My arm can only be a 'spring' when there is a load on it.

I'm talking about mainting poper pressure on the arm in order to fight. IME, the pressure is maintianed weather there is resistance at present or not. If you attempt to only apply pressure when resistance exists, you are pushing rather than springing. The exact terminology will vary, but basic methods include reaching for a point, and imagining water (or something similar) pouting out the arms. Without that aspect, the extended arm is weak, though this may not matter if your statement that you drop this position at 6' from your opponent is true, as the position is never used for anyhin except show. This has not, in my experience, been how most WC people I have engaged with have used the position.

 

IME, both personal and in acedemic look, the posture is used until either the opponent comes in range of the hands, or until the bridgin starts. At that point, the WC practition functionally moves into "sticky-hands".

Don't get this at all. 'Point of a posture?' You answered your own question. A posture is just that - a position that exists for a split second - an initial position

Yes, you have said that the posture is abandoned at 1-2 steps out of kicking range (the point where two outstreached hands can meet). So what purpose can a hand posture serve if only used at such a range?

the Man Sao places the hand close to the opponent so, for example, whatever weapon it turns into has less of a distance to travel.

Punch range is (about) 3ft; your extended arm is a target at around twice that distance. You cannot punch my body at the range I am talking about.

I can't hurt you with a Man Sao. Also, If our hands are in contact I can not only kick your groin but your head with my instep - wouldn't but could.

Not without closing range. And the particular vunerability I am discusing is usually exploited (by me at any rate) bay coming out and in. Attempting to get your foot across the 9ft diagonal to my head would be foolharty. Similarly, you are a little far to really expect to connect with a kick against any but the most foolhardy (and you will need to step out with the kick, not a common tactic IME for WC).

At a much greater distance I have seen some non Wing Chun fighters END a fight with a lunging straight blast let alone a kick. Be careful making assumptions about range it all depends on the fighter(s) - there are no fixed distances

Fo course there are. You cannot usea weapon at any range longer than the weapons reach. You can attempt to cross distance while attacking, and we can disucss that as well.

i.e. 3 feet = kicking, etc. It sounds like your talking about a distance where you are not in range to attack my arm, which is the range we were discussing.

If your arm is outstreached, your hand is almost 3ft from you body. Mine is as well. That's a potental distance of 6ft (not accounting for lean and such).

Wing Chun attacks when the distance and angle is correct. What do we mean by attack? An attack begins when I move to you or you to me or both - the entry phase.

I mean what you ment when you said (regarding this range) "If the opponent is close enough to be a threat the Wing Chun man should already be attacking"

An attack begins when I move to you or you to me or both - the entry phase.

This statement seems to illustrate much of my original point. I can continue an engagement at 6 ft without closing. I have not seen that WC has a good solution to an aggressor who keeps range and performs destructions to the limbs. My problem with the WC stance is that it presents the limb as an easy target without good reposte'.

The recommended guard, though this is a misnomer, is with both hands aligned on the Centerline, the closest a fist or so away from the body with fingers pointing ahead and the lead is the same except 'parked' right in front of the other. But again a 'guard; sounds like we wait - we do not.

Yes, that is the one I am discussing (though my discription placed the height differently, the position and problems are the same). The forward hand is very vunerable to a limb destruction.

There are many variables to consider upon entry - distance - angle - state-of-mind of the enemy - number of enemies - a whole different thread - this topic was about your personal criticisms of the system and Man Sao.

Correct. I am talking about the prolems I percieve. At this moment, I am focusing on the "ready posture" and tactics from early engagement.

If you 'spar' with Wing Chun people then I must assume that they all have a tendency to 'shoot' Wing Chun men are trained for the inside and they go in ASAP - we do not need an 'opening' we only need a target.

IME they have a tendancy to look for a bridge. If I obligingly go for the head / body, they attempt to move the attack outside the "doghouse" while bridgeing and looking for an inside position. If I keep range and (among other things) work spot-hits against the forward hand, they have trouble.

If our tool is 'blocked' we have a bridge and we stick and follow - if they move we face and re-attack. At the distance Man Sao would become a target for you, you would already be a target - that simple. 'The attacking hand defends'

I would be a target for what? I have a sphere I can put a weapon in, so do you. You have a limb in my sphere.

 

Of course you can attempt to rush in, of course you can do many things. But you have an undefended target offered to me at a range where I have none to you. I consider it an expolitable failing that probibly stems from WC's history as a "boxing" style.

 

I think WC is very good at what it apears designed for. I think that outisde of that, there are some basic problems related to the presuppositions that WC seems to make. IME, trying this out has given me confused opponents; but I make no claim to the particular quiality of their WC. Having looked at it in articles, I see the writers there doing the same things that appear problamatic, and were exploitable, in the people I have interacted with. Perhaps I have just had bad luck with finding the right WC people; though I must assume that if I have consistanly found this a problem, it must be a problem for at least a large number of WC practioners (even if not every one).

[Shaolin]

Ad Homonym or not I would still like to hear what level you are and in what.

I'm talking about mainting poper pressure on the arm in order to fight. IME, the pressure is maintianed weather there is resistance at present or not.

 

Okay then so I am supposed to be applying pressure to something that isn't there? Talk about post hoc fallacies. Wing Chun uses forward energy. There is no physical pressure before contact. There is no energy used unless needed. The forward energy would begin in the form of a fist shooting at you. If there is an obstruction then we stick and there is your spring energy. I really don't think you understand what spring energy is as it relates to forward energy in the context of the system.

Without that aspect, the extended arm is weak, though this may not matter if your statement that you drop this position at 6' from your opponent is true, as the position is never used for anyhin except show. This has not, in my experience, been how most WC people I have engaged with have used the position.

 

An extended arm is an extended arm. There should be no tension in the arm only the energy required to maintain it's position/structure - this is true with or without contact. If there is contact than forward energy, spring energy, and all that good stuff comes into play.

 

I am not qualified to address all possible uses of Man Sao. The point is that an initial 'ready position' means almost nothing in a fight. A starting position is just that - a position from which to start from. Wing Chun traditionally places the hands on the Centerline. Once in range the hand whatever position it is in would convert into an attack - the Man Sao isn't 'dropped' or 'for show' it is just there. Once the time is right is would typically change into a fist and be fired at you, although it could also change into any other tool should the need arise.

Yes, you have said that the posture is abandoned at 1-2 steps out of kicking range (the point where two outstreached hands can meet). So what purpose can a hand posture serve if only used at such a range?

 

What didn't you understand about structural efficiency? The hand is on the line and if advanced (extended out) has less of a distance to travel once it becomes a fist - if that is what it changes to.

Punch range is (about) 3ft; your extended arm is a target at around twice that distance. You cannot punch my body at the range I am talking about.

 

You seem to speak/think in static terms. The distance is always changing. What was 3 feet 2 tenths of a second ago may be 1 foot now. The distance at which you can hurt my lead hand/arm with a strike is not the same distance at which we can touch our fingertips together - it must be closer. If my lead is not fully extended - (by the way none of the WC people that I know fully extend a lead) - then the distance is even closer. If I am not side facing you then the distance is even smaller - if I feel that you are going to attack my lead I may bring it all the way in where are we now - 4 feet, 3.25 ? This seems a bit trivial to me but... In any case to attack my lead you must move to me and wow can my hand move fast - quite a target you've selected - a small fast moving target that is also a weapon - a few reasons we don't chase hands. When you move in to attack my lead hand any one of a dozen things can happen. In but one variant I could move in when you do - close the fist and fire - hey your target just moved AT your face! Am I worried about you hitting my fist now - not in the least - are you worried about your nose - maybe not, but there is more coming in the next 2 tenths of a second while your forward momentum is still bleeding off and I'm still closing on you and attacking your Center. If by some miracle you blast my lead attack away then my other hand will be right behind it - on the line - which your other hand has just left, etc.

 

 

of course there are. You cannot usea weapon at any range longer than the weapons reach. You can attempt to cross distance while attacking, and we can discuss that as well.

 

They are one and the same in context - the feet, hands and body can move as a unit. The KO I saw was done in one fast move of the body and fist shooting together - time to close and land over the 6 feet 0.3 seconds - what's your reaction time? Wing Chun starts a little closer than this.

My problem with the WC stance is that it presents the limb as an easy target without good reposte'.

 

As I said an extended arm is not required. Typical entry is a small flank with a straight blast - not a statuesque pose that waits to be attacked.

 

BTW:

 

There was one time when I was playing around with one of my 'karate' freinds and knowing he was in trouble in close he threw a couple of 'flicks' at my lead hand. For whatever it's worth I changed immediately to a Mike Tyson like hand position with two fists .5 inch off my chest next to each other on the Centerline. This took care of that issue then.. but that was play - a streetfight rarely involves ins and outs with dancing around.

Yes, that is the one I am discussing (though my discription placed the height differently, the position and problems are the same). The forward hand is very vunerable to a limb destruction.

 

In the hand position I described the lead fingertips are about 15 inches away from my belly button pointed at your center. If your reaching for my hand then I’m going for your head - is that clear?

IME they have a tendancy to look for a bridge. If I obligingly go for the head / body, they attempt to move the attack outside the "doghouse" while bridgeing and looking for an inside position. If I keep range and (among other things) work spot-hits against the forward hand, they have trouble.

 

Not really sure if I understand 'look for a bridge' the bridge should be incidental as should the trap be – the only real objective is attacking the Center - everything else is happenstance.

I would be a target for what? I have a sphere I can put a weapon in, so do you. You have a limb in my sphere. Of course you can attempt to rush in, of course you can do many things. But you have an undefended target offered to me at a range where I have none to you.

 

It's like this: In order for you to keep me at a range where my fist is your target (good luck) and your body is not a target for me you had better have a mastery of distance control that goes way beyond mine. It is much easier to close than it is to stop someone from closing - at least that is my experience (have you tried it in the Subway?) As I said I have no problem with you hitting my fist - that's contact and it will impart information to my hands during the shoot - at that moment I am just a hare's a$$ away from being where I want to be.

I consider it an expolitable failing that probibly stems from WC's history as a "boxing" style.

 

Why don't you explain Wing Chun's history as a boxing style? Wing Chun is a hand to hand system one of the last Shaolin systems that was intended to be used against the existing Shaolin systems of the day to defeat the Manchus.

 

Sheesh.

Edited September 25, 2002 by Shaolin

[Shaolin]

nt

[JerryLove]

Okay then so I am supposed to be applying pressure to something that isn't there?

Let's not change the basic point. I was / am responding to "The lead need not be extended in a Man Sao". Do you also feel that this posture does not require the lead hand to be extended out? If you do not, then the semantics of "how" one does it is not really what I have at issue.

I am not qualified to address all possible uses of Man Sao. The point is that an initial 'ready position' means almost nothing in a fight. A starting position is just that - a position from which to start from. Wing Chun traditionally places the hands on the Centerline. Once in range the hand whatever position it is in would convert into an attack - the Man Sao isn't 'dropped' or 'for show' it is just there.

So let' talk about when "in range" is from a WC perspective. IME, when you cannot reach your opponent's body with your hand, and he has not made contact with you, you are not "in range" from the perspective of changing arm-positions. They have waited for "first contact", or a closer range than the one I am discussing.

Once the time is right is would typically change into a fist and be fired at you, although it could also change into any other tool should the need arise.

You illustrate my point here. I am discussing a range farther than a fist will connect at; unles you have a very lunging punch that crosses 6 feet which I have yet to evidence in WC.

What didn't you understand about structural efficiency? The hand is on the line and if advanced (extended out) has less of a distance to travel once it becomes a fist - if that is what it changes to.

But you have claimed you abandon it before you are in range where that makes any difference, unless punching the air 3-feet in front of your opponent is useful.

You seem to speak/think in static terms. The distance is always changing. What was 3 feet 2 tenths of a second ago may be 1 foot now. The distance at which you can hurt my lead hand/arm with a strike is not the same distance at which we can touch our fingertips together - it must be closer.

About 3 inches.

You seem to speak/think in static terms.

Sorry it seems that way; I try not to put the cart before the horse and dicuss a bigger range of variables when the smaller one has yet to be sorted out.

This seems a bit trivial to me but... In any case to attack my lead you must move to me and wow can my hand move fast

I'm sure you are very impressive.

quite a target you've selected - a small fast moving target that is also a weapon

It has worked well in the past. Something about action vs reaction and bad hand placement.

When you move in to attack my lead hand any one of a dozen things can happen. In but one variant I could move in when you do - close the fist and fire - hey your target just moved AT your face! Am I worried about you hitting my fist now - not in the least - are you worried about your nose - maybe not, but there is more coming in the next 2 tenths of a second while your forward momentum is still bleeding off and I'm still closing on you and attacking your Center.

Ah yes, andother assumption of WC that I disagree with; the assumption that forward movement is what is coming at you.

If by some miracle you blast my lead attack away then my other hand will be right behind it - on the line - which your other hand has just left, etc.

If you are looking to movement based responses to WC based movement, it's usually triangle-step flanking; though depending on the opponents speed, I could just keeb back stepping and working long-range destructions.

They are one and the same in context - the feet, hands and body can move as a unit. The KO I saw was done in one fast move of the body and fist shooting together - time to close and land over the 6 feet 0.3 seconds - what's your reaction time?

You are claiming to be able to react as fast as I can punch ("In but one variant I could move in when you do - close the fist and fire - hey your target just moved AT your face!"), so let's presume I have the same relative reflexes as you do.

As I said an extended arm is not required. Typical entry is a small flank with a straight blast - not a statuesque pose that waits to be attacked.

At 6 feet, where are your hands?

There was one time when I was playing around with one of my 'karate' freinds and knowing he was in trouble in close he threw a couple of 'flicks' at my lead hand. For whatever it's worth I changed immediately to a Mike Tyson like hand position with two fists .5 inch off my chest next to each other on the Centerline. This took care of that issue then.. but that was play - a streetfight rarely involves ins and outs with dancing around.

Sounds like it would be fun to play with you. You in FL by any chance?

In the hand position I described the lead fingertips are about 15 inches away from my belly button pointed at your center. If your reaching for my hand then I’m going for your head - is that clear?

I've got a 15" reach advantage based on target; though I don't think I've ever seen a WC with such low hands. Nor is this indicated by any of the WC instructors I have seen published. Can you referene me to someone with a WC fighting posture at "belly-button" height?

It's like this: In order for you to keep me at a range where my fist is your target (good luck) and your body is not a target for me you had better have a mastery of distance control that goes way beyond mine.

And in oder for you to control range, you had better have distance control that goes beyong mine. Of course, control of distance is easier or harder based on more circumstances that I would care to shake a stick at, not the leat of which is the comparitive desireed distances and strategies to maintain them.

 

Since I have yet to see WC "rush" (a movement with enough forward speed to make reversing from it to keep distance functionally impossable), it appears range can be maintained. If it cannot, then the fight changes. The inital problem of the posture remains weather you have moved to a position where it ceases to be exploited or not.

Why don't you explain Wing Chun's history as a boxing style? Wing Chun is a hand to hand system one of the last Shaolin systems that was intended to be used against the existing Shaolin systems of the day to defeat the Manchus.

Yea, and Bodidarma originated all kung-fu, though he stole it from secret fighting techniques of the Pharohs.