An intersting Article on BJJ

[cross]

Did you happen to notice that to be raped (a woman's top concern in physical self defense) ...the opponent is in your guard? Try to rape Kyra Gracie and see what happens to you. It's all fair game. Guillotines, sit-over sweeps, knee in belly (scissor) sweeps, arm bars, triangle choke, cross choke (depending on what the opponent is wearing), omoplata, elevators...the list goes on. I would say that of all the possible scenarios for self defense...Rape is best combated by Brazilian Jiujitsu!

I disagree. Read the countless news reports you can find online regarding woman who have survived rape. None of the reports list the women using any kind of martial arts related technique. Its always biting, scratching, spitting, screaming, trying to rip the guys eyes out etc.

A rape is possibly one of the most psychologically devastating things a woman could face. Under such conditions what are the chances they would retain the ability and have the presence of mind to pull a sweep and armbar on the guy? Unless of course they live and breath bjj like Kyra Gracie, who would be an exception, not the rule.

Its far easier to take the womans existing instincts and fine tune them. I.e. Put your hand in their face and start ripping.

Again, just talking about physical self defense (not situational avoidance and such) the other things they need are boxing strikes, probably just jab, cross, and maybe the hook, and the low line round house. Once the attacker gets you to the ground, which is highly likely, it's all jiujitsu.

Once again, trying to teach your average woman boxing techniques is a good formula for a broken hand and an even more annoyed attacker. Can you picture a 50 year old woman delivering knock out power with a 1-2 combo on a physically much larger attacker? especially from the close range at which a rape(or any attack for that matter) occurs?

Also, keep in mind that you're just seeing clips. Which, by definition, are portions of a whole. You could watch clips of boxing and assume it's not effective...same goes for any other martial art. Of course, these assumptions would not necessarily be true.

Im not saying bjj is useless for self defense, a solid knowledge of ground work is key for increasing your chances of surviving a self defense situation, im just yet to see many techniques beyond the basic positioning that provides much help to those attempting to survive a real situation.

Lastly, as I've seen you post before, self defense is best learned by using training methods that are realistic. Brazilian Jiujitsu is one of the arts that offers 100% resistance and very intense training. That is one of the reason that it, Muay Thai, Boxing, and wrestling tend to dominate the MMA scene.

I agree with you here, they great thing about bjj is the high level of intensity you can train at without causing serious injury. Its still lacking in alot of areas when it comes to self defense, in my opinion anyway.

[Adonis]

Good points cross,

how ever to practice those "dirty techniques" With resistance of your partner, and still be safe to your partner is rather difficult.

[cross]

Good points cross,

how ever to practice those "dirty techniques" With resistance of your partner, and still be safe to your partner is rather difficult.

The same can be said for bjj. How often in training are arms actually broken, shoulders and knees popped etc? It doesnt happen, but the transition from making the person tap to snapping the joint isnt that much. Its similar with the tactics i mentioned:

Has i posted in another thread Here:

"Its possible to train most things, within reason and with a few modifications.

The different between brushing your hands across someones eyes and digging your fingers in is very slight. The difference between holding onto someones ear or ripping it off is very slight. The difference between driving a punching into someones chest or driving it into their throat is very slight. The difference between palmstriking someone in the face wearing protection at 75% power or hitting someone with no protection at 100% power is very slight.

Add a full face hockey style helmet or motorbike helmet and you can simulate much better with gripping the plastic etc in place of gouging.

Training has close as possible to reality is important if the thing your preparing for is reality. Anything less simply isnt going to cut it when things turn real."

You can pinch, spit, scream, without any modification.

[Adonis]

That would be a no go. You can go try doing a dirty tatic. More likely then not the aggression level of the man, plus I have read some reports alot of the people are on some form of subsitence abuse at the time. It tickes them off and creates more escalation level for the women. If the women has control of her opponent. Its either to fight off the man.

However its easier to apply from a controling postion.

[bushido_man96]

I think that you guys have answered each others questions without realizing it; why not train to do both?

Couldn't a woman in this situation begin by distracting with the eye-gouging, ear-twisting, and face-clawing techniques to get the aggressor's attention elsewhere and then move on to applying the BJJ techniques that would be useful in dispatching the attacker??

I honestly think that both can benefit each other.

You both (cross, ps1) have presented good points about the nature of the event we are discussing. I think the two of you have put the answer together.

[Adonis]

bushido man I agree with you both should be trained. But focusing on soley "Dirty Tatics" its not the best idea. Your technique fails, can up the level of agression of your attacker, causing more harm for the person. However using a controling or dominant position to throw the techniques from is more usefull.

Good point.

[ps1]

I agree Bushido. In Aiki Jujitsu everything begins with atemi (vital stroke). There is nothing saying this can't or shouldn't be done. Even an eye strike that falls on the eye lids should give an opening to run. Remember BJJ (although not the only art) also teaches a very effective way to stand while creating distance from the opponent, not everything is rolling around.

As far as escalation...100% of attempted and completed rapes end in injury or death of the victim (DOJ website). So I suggest doing whatever possible to escape.

Additionally, cross, I agree with where you're coming from. However, in the US the Department of Justice does not perform studies that determine what types of attacks fended off a would-be rapist. They just put it into two categories. They are Passive Resistance (Begging, crying, and hiding) or Active Resistance (biting, striking, running, or grappling). THey show that less than 10% of rapes are prevented with Passive resistance. Roughly 65% of rapes are prevented using Active Resistance. Point is...in the US at least, there's no imperical evidence saying that grappling (Submission style) is more or less effective than biting or scratching the vital points.

This is how I handle it in teaching. If the classes are a once a week "self defense" class that is temporary or has a set number of weeks, I teach very basic things that utilize the natural startle reactions. Very much as you described.

However, for the student that is coming to a regular class, we teach martial arts. I the case of the school I'm currently in...that's BJJ primarily. You don't have to eat, sleep, and drink it. We have a few women who train. One has been training for about a year and is quite capable of handling the large guys who come in off the street. Is she the norm? For the average student who trains in BJJ consistently for about a year, yes. No doubt, that training must be kept up or the skills will degrade however.

You're certianly correct when it comes to the psychological part. But the only way to train that is intense and realistic training. It's not uncommon during open mat for the instructor to sneak up behind someone take them down and start rolling when the opponent wasn't ready.

The boxing 1,2 is a great combo. Women, despite popular belief, are just as able to knock someone out as men. They are corridinated attacks. Again, however, they must be trained. Are they for the 3 hour seminar...no. But for the consistent student, they will become habit (which is what martial arts train...new habits). Of course all of this assumes you even see the attacker coming or feel you're in danger at all. Nearly 75% of rapes are committed by someone the attacker though she knew. Usually, it is committed under the influence of some sort of drug. But that takes us into the realm of situational awareness, chain of drinks, staying in groups and so on. I'm sure we don't disagree that teaching those sorts of things are more important than the fighting techniques themselves.

I guess my point is that I don't disagree with the idea that eye pokes and groin strikes, biting and such should be used. However, a solid punch on the jaw, rear naked choke, or knee bar can be just as effective. Escalation is a non-issue since the chances of injury otherwise are 100%. Part of the mental injury women go through is the feeling of helplessness that ensues. It destroys their self image and some never regain it. This, unfortunately, lies beyond our ken. That must be handled by experts in psychology, social workers, and the victim herself.

Thanks.

[cross]

That would be a no go. You can go try doing a dirty tatic. More likely then not the aggression level of the man, plus I have read some reports alot of the people are on some form of subsitence abuse at the time. It tickes them off and creates more escalation level for the women. If the women has control of her opponent. Its either to fight off the man.

However its easier to apply from a controling

postion.

I agree about the controlling position. Has i said above: im just yet to see many techniques beyond the basic positioning that provides much help to those attempting to survive a real situation.

Im not suggesting that people forget about positioning on the ground and just go for the "dirty tactics" has you call them. Using these tactics in conjunction with positioning and a rapid delivery system such as the shredder(more info at https://www.senshido.com), will provide a great chance of escape has opposed to trying to wrestle the guy.

In regards to the substance abuse comment: If you are tickling the guys skull through his eye socket with your thumb, no substance is going to stop him from going blind. Try to armbar him however, and maybe pop his elbow, thats a good way to make him more annoyed.

[cross]

Additionally, cross, I agree with where you're coming from. However, in the US the Department of Justice does not perform studies that determine what types of attacks fended off a would-be rapist. They just put it into two categories. They are Passive Resistance (Begging, crying, and hiding) or Active Resistance (biting, striking, running, or grappling). THey show that less than 10% of rapes are prevented with Passive resistance. Roughly 65% of rapes are prevented using Active Resistance. Point is...in the US at least, there's no imperical evidence saying that grappling (Submission style) is more or less effective than biting or scratching the vital points.

Whilst there may not be statistical evidence to suggest one way or another. The fact that you can look at any amount of news reports or victim interviews and struggle to find one that describes the victim using a martial arts technique of any kind, makes it hard for me to suggest to a person looking to learn rape prevention techniques to go to the local martial arts(not just bjj) school and give it a try. Because chances are, thats not where they will find answers.

However, for the student that is coming to a regular class, we teach martial arts. I the case of the school I'm currently in...that's BJJ primarily. You don't have to eat, sleep, and drink it. We have a few women who train. One has been training for about a year and is quite capable of handling the large guys who come in off the street. Is she the norm? For the average student who trains in BJJ consistently for about a year, yes. No doubt, that training must be kept up or the skills will degrade however.

There is no doubt this student would be able to handle guys coming to your school, of the street. But handling guys on the street is a different story, chances are, unless those bjj techniques have been drilled with a-dumps invoked in the victim and role played minus the gi, minus the mats with good bad guys, its going to fall apart and she will revert back to the gross motor insticts she was born with.

You're certianly correct when it comes to the psychological part. But the only way to train that is intense and realistic training. It's not uncommon during open mat for the instructor to sneak up behind someone take them down and start rolling when the opponent wasn't ready.

I dont really consider this training the psychological aspect of combat. Sure, for the first moment your grabbed, its surprising, but then its just another grappling match right?

Realistic roleplaying with congruous environmental, verbal and physical methods applied is my idea of psychological training.

[danbong]

A few years back here in Sacramento, somebody tried to rape a female PE teacher in a deserted locker room during a basketball game at night. The teacher trained in bjj. She started to choke him and then he fought her off so *he* could run away for his life. Maybe bjj doesn't work all the time for rape defense, but it certainly gives you a good starting point IMHO.