youtube video

[AngelaG]

The main reason shotokan doesnt function against fully resisting attackers is the training methods used. The guy in the video is probably a champion of point fighting and 5 step sparring, but at no point in training would he have dealt with "a guy trying to take you out via knockout or submission".

That would depend on the training methods. We do actually train against fully resisting opponents in my dojo, and I consider myself Shotokan.

[cross]

That would depend on the training methods. We do actually train against fully resisting opponents in my dojo, and I consider myself Shotokan.

I agree it comes down to the training methods. If you look at the majority of shotokan schools, the training methods dont help you deal with full out attacks. Even those that do deal with full out attackers most often are only working against someone attacking them "full out" with shotokan techniques and tactics.

[Elky]

Even those that do deal with full out attackers most often are only working against someone attacking them "full out" with shotokan techniques and tactics.

As opposed to muay thai where they attack you with taekwondo techniques, or judo where they attack you with kung fu techniques...

Most styles train primarily against their own style, it's a matter of pragmatism most of the time, since all of your class are learning karate, chances are they're gonna attack karate style.

[cross]

As opposed to muay thai where they attack you with taekwondo techniques, or judo where they attack you with kung fu techniques...

Most styles train primarily against their own style, it's a matter of pragmatism most of the time, since all of your class are learning karate, chances are they're gonna attack karate style.

Perhaps the delivery system is the problem in karate.

If you look at a typical muay thai school, people spend a very short time learning each technique and then it is practiced without modification in various ways. In shadowboxing, on heavy bags and pads, and then in contact sparring.

Then look at a typical karate school, people spend a large part of the class marching up and down the hall doing single techniques in the air, then sometimes they will hit a bag with modified technique, then spend another chunk doing techniques in kata, and finally do some non-contact point sparring, or freestyle sparring that ends up looking like sloppy kickboxing anyway.

Im not saying that happens at every single karate school in the world, but you look at the majority and thats what you will find.

[Elky]

I disagree with you in regards to the sloppy kickboxing - in my experience kickboxing looks like sloppy karate.

I see what you mean about modifying techniques for sparring. I think it happens less than you think though.

[Montana]

I think what you guys are missinbg here is the purpose of training in karate or muay thai. Karate was developed for self-defense purposes, whereas muay thai is for sport. True, there is a lot of sport karate out there now, which I think is really sad and pathetic (personal opinion), but training traditionally for karate is to protect yourself on the street against any sort of attack, not just attacks from one particular style of martial art.

[Menjo]

It comes down to the fact that the "karate" guy in the gi simply lacked any skill,

I would NEVER beleive him to be a champion of any kind of sparring, inclding point.

The reason why is he had no concept of distance, stance, hand speed, and looked like he expected the grappler to run back at the start.

The karate guy from the looks of it, never had a day of REAL training in his life, if he did, he is naturally made to never reach a certain level unless he changes his living habits.

That or hes just a fool.

[ps1]

It comes down to the fact that the "karate" guy in the gi simply lacked any skill,

I would NEVER believe him to be a champion of any kind of sparring, including point.

The reason why is he had no concept of distance, stance, hand speed, and looked like he expected the grappler to run back at the start.

The karate guy from the looks of it, never had a day of REAL training in his life, if he did, he is naturally made to never reach a certain level unless he changes his living habits.

That or hes just a fool.

I'm not going to disagree with you. However, you would be surprised how quickly even great standing martial artists fold under this pressure. It's not, in my opinion, because they are taught inferior techniques overall. Rather, because they don't train against people who can do what that grappler did to him. I was in a dojo that was pretty rough in terms of sparring (even groin shots were fair game). Sometimes we'd get a high school wrestler who would try to take us down. It was usually unsuccessful. However, this is because the technique of the young wrestlers wasn't good. As I mentioned earlier, when I came against a world class wrestler, I was down extremely fast. On the ground, everything changes. Especially when the opponent controls your hips.

In my opinion, if tma practitioners spent more time training with grapplers instead of bashing them, they really would learn to thwart them well and remain standing. There are plenty of guys in MMA who have realize this. Look how Randy Cotoure handled Gonzaga in the most recent UFC. He did the whole thing on his feet and from the clinch. There are plenty of others who do well and remain standing for most of the matches. They learn how to get up properly and defend the take down.

My point is this. We need to get past the idea that we already have the answer to everything and realize that we must always progress. Mastery is a journey, not a destination. And it must be maintained throughout your life. That doesn't happen by being stagnant.

[Menjo]

I'm not going to disagree with you. However, you would be surprised how quickly even great standing martial artists fold under this pressure. It's not, in my opinion, because they are taught inferior techniques overall. Rather, because they don't train against people who can do what that grappler did to him. I was in a dojo that was pretty rough in terms of sparring (even groin shots were fair game). Sometimes we'd get a high school wrestler who would try to take us down. It was usually unsuccessful. However, this is because the technique of the young wrestlers wasn't good. As I mentioned earlier, when I came against a world class wrestler, I was down extremely fast. On the ground, everything changes. Especially when the opponent controls your hips.

In my opinion, if tma practitioners spent more time training with grapplers instead of bashing them, they really would learn to thwart them well and remain standing. There are plenty of guys in MMA who have realize this. Look how Randy Cotoure handled Gonzaga in the most recent UFC. He did the whole thing on his feet and from the clinch. There are plenty of others who do well and remain standing for most of the matches. They learn how to get up properly and defend the take down.

My point is this. We need to get past the idea that we already have the answer to everything and realize that we must always progress. Mastery is a journey, not a destination. And it must be maintained throughout your life. That doesn't happen by being stagnant.

You have some great points there ps1.

I'm glad you mentioned that how on the ground everything changes, even having experiance on the ground may not be enough agaisnt a world class grappler.

[bushido_man96]

In my opinion, if tma practitioners spent more time training with grapplers instead of bashing them, they really would learn to thwart them well and remain standing. There are plenty of guys in MMA who have realize this. Look how Randy Cotoure handled Gonzaga in the most recent UFC. He did the whole thing on his feet and from the clinch. There are plenty of others who do well and remain standing for most of the matches. They learn how to get up properly and defend the take down.

My point is this. We need to get past the idea that we already have the answer to everything and realize that we must always progress. Mastery is a journey, not a destination. And it must be maintained throughout your life. That doesn't happen by being stagnant.

I agree. There is so much that MAs can learn from each other, that it makes more sense to work together than to try to make excuses.