Higher guard in the street ?

[bushido_man96]

Those are some good points, bearich. Do you think that strategies such as those would be more suitable for ring fighting or sparring, as opposed to a street altercation?

[username8517]

Ideally, I think they can be used across the board with success if trained properly.

Obviously in a steet scenario you're aiming to end it as quickly as possible with no rules so you're free to do anything.

However, when you take it into a sporting venue with rules, it restricts what options you have as a counter attack. For example, if I held a low guard in a MMA fight, I can't parry and re-direct a thrown overhand punch into my elbow as I might in a street situation. However, I can see it as a set up for a takedown where I bait my opponent to go high and shoot in as soon as I see that arm start to fly.

The problem with this would be the constant repitition of it. Use it too much and your opponents will catch on. And at the upper levels of the sporting venues, you'll often be taped--allowing your opponents to study your tricks--something that can't be done against average joe on the street.

Personally, one of my favorite is to have an open guard. Then when the punch comes down the center line, I guntine (scissors) it and bury my knuckles into their bicep. Granted it doesn't cause the arm to shatter in a million pieces and fall off, but it does hurt alot--numbs the arm temporarily and makes them think twice about throwing it again. And as listed on the UFC website, there is no ruling stating that this is an illegal strike. However, how many fighters do you think train this?

And I guess that above examples is really why you don't see things like this in the UFC--no one aims to counter attack. Rather when their opponents start attack, most fighters either try and block and aborb the damage or get out of the way (not that there is anything wrong with that), but I think a fighter that trained to counter attack at the time he or she is being attacked would throw a lot of people off guard.

[nine_weapons]

A savvy street fighter would take advantage of the open abdomen. However, it is an interesting point.

How you have your guard can put you a distinct advantage simply by the example listed above--it lets you dictate the odds of where your opponent is going to strike.

Odds are we are all going to attack what we perceive as our opponents openings or weak points. And likewise, our opponents will attack us where they think our openings and weak points are . By knowing ahead of time what your opponents thinks is your openings, it allows you to be one step ahead of them.

For example, have a high guard and your opponent sees an opening in your abdomen--you can expect their first attack is going to be a body shot coming your way.

Keep a low guard and your opponent sees your head as exposed. Open your guard a little (to about shoulder width) and your opponent will see an opening down the middle. Bring your guard in closer and slightly turn at an angle and your opponent will see an opening on your outside.

A smart fighter will feed his or her opponent where they want to be attacked and destroy their opponent when the attack they want comes in.

the thing is that it doesn't always work this way. When people are under stress and dealing with adrenaline dump, they get tunnel vision. odds are, the opponent is only going to head hunt. intentionally leaving something open IME, is not going to enable you to predict where they will strike. Often in fights, there is no time for any of this. fights happen fast. very fast.

[nine_weapons]

However, when you take it into a sporting venue with rules, it restricts what options you have as a counter attack. For example, if I held a low guard in a MMA fight, I can't parry and re-direct a thrown overhand punch into my elbow as I might in a street situation.

not true. I have done it in thai matches and as far as i know, it is also legal in mma. the issue is timing. when you have a guy throwing flurries of punches at you, you can't afford to use BOTH arms to stop one of his attacks. He still has a free arm.

Personally, one of my favorite is to have an open guard. Then when the punch comes down the center line, I guntine (scissors) it and bury my knuckles into their bicep. Granted it doesn't cause the arm to shatter in a million pieces and fall off, but it does hurt alot--numbs the arm temporarily and makes them think twice about throwing it again. And as listed on the UFC website, there is no ruling stating that this is an illegal strike. However, how many fighters do you think train this?

none, for the reason I mentioned above.

And I guess that above examples is really why you don't see things like this in the UFC--no one aims to counter attack. Rather when their opponents start attack, most fighters either try and block and aborb the damage or get out of the way (not that there is anything wrong with that), but I think a fighter that trained to counter attack at the time he or she is being attacked would throw a lot of people off guard.

two well known counter fighters I can think of right off the top of my head are liddell and pedro rizzo. there are counter fighters in mma, just as there are in boxing and any other fight sport.

[username8517]

the thing is that it doesn't always work this way. When people are under stress and dealing with adrenaline dump, they get tunnel vision. odds are, the opponent is only going to head hunt. intentionally leaving something open IME, is not going to enable you to predict where they will strike. Often in fights, there is no time for any of this. fights happen fast. very fast.

Obviously no guard will let you predict the attack thrown. However, it can help limit the possibilities of what attack can come. If your standing with a wide guard and there is an opening down the center to your face, where do you think the attack is going to come? Stand slightly more off at an angle and the shot will probably be a hook or haymaker to your head.

And yes, fights do happen very fast, so if you can create an advantage by increasing the odds of knowing where the attack is going to come from and how, aren't you making your odds of success even that much more probable?

not true. I have done it in thai matches and as far as i know, it is also legal in mma. the issue is timing. when you have a guy throwing flurries of punches at you, you can't afford to use BOTH arms to stop one of his attacks. He still has a free arm.

I don't know about thai matches, but in mma matches, strikes to joints are illegal. You hand is nothing but small bones and joints.

And yes timing is an issue and something that has to be worked on. However how many times do you see a flurry of punches thrown versus one or two punches thrown just to keep you at a distance? On top of that, you plant your elbow inbetween two knuckles of your opponent, the pain of their knuckles being split is going to overwhelm their brain and make them forget all about their second punch they were getting ready to throw.

Taking the example I have here:

Personally, one of my favorite is to have an open guard. Then when the punch comes down the center line, I guntine (scissors) it and bury my knuckles into their bicep.

For the sake of example say myself and my opponent are both in a left lead. As his left jab comes out I'm going to parry it with my back hand (my right) and use my left that's already out to drive into their biceps while I'm stepping to the outside. First that lets me plant a nice frog on their arm and it allows me zone to the outside where their other hand, if they still manage to throw it, is no longer as much of a threat. Furthermore, once I've guntined an opponent, I'm not just going to stand there and wait for another attack to come my way, I'm following it up with attacks of my own.

two well known counter fighters I can think of right off the top of my head are liddell and pedro rizzo. there are counter fighters in mma, just as there are in boxing and any other fight sport.

Admittedly I don't recall ever seeing Rizzo fight but once (maybe twice) and I wasn't thinking about Liddell when I posted.

[nine_weapons]

Obviously no guard will let you predict the attack thrown. However, it can help limit the possibilities of what attack can come. If your standing with a wide guard and there is an opening down the center to your face, where do you think the attack is going to come? Stand slightly more off at an angle and the shot will probably be a hook or haymaker to your head.

you're putting logic behind something that is not logical. if there was logic behind it, 9 times out of 10, they wouldn't be fighting in the first place. Don't get me wrong, what you are saying makes sense, but you are trying to make order out of chaos.

And yes, fights do happen very fast, so if you can create an advantage by increasing the odds of knowing where the attack is going to come from and how, aren't you making your odds of success even that much more probable?

because you aren't increasing anything...theoretically you are correct, but my years of working bars and clubs has shown me otherwise. the average joe isn't looking for openings - he is just slugging it out, usually at the head, or clinching.

I don't know about thai matches, but in mma matches, strikes to joints are illegal. You hand is nothing but small bones and joints.

I'll look into that one, because I am curious now. We have some guys with fights coming up, so I have someone ask.

And yes timing is an issue and something that has to be worked on. However how many times do you see a flurry of punches thrown versus one or two punches thrown just to keep you at a distance?

in a streetfight? not often.

On top of that, you plant your elbow inbetween two knuckles of your opponent, the pain of their knuckles being split is going to overwhelm their brain and make them forget all about their second punch they were getting ready to throw.

sure, IF you catch them before another strike lands. Also, you have to go back to the adrenaline thing here - I've seen guys fight with a broken hand before. depends on the individual.

[username8517]

because you aren't increasing anything...theoretically you are correct, but my years of working bars and clubs has shown me otherwise. the average joe isn't looking for openings - he is just slugging it out, usually at the head, or clinching.

I think this might be where we're drawing different opinions on the matter. I've have had moderate success with this, although it was in a controlled environment (in class sparring) versus actually getting out and into a real streetfight against drunks. Now I'm not out actively looking for street fights to test these out in, but mere extraplating what success I have had in a controlled setting. Perhaps I am wrong.

[nine_weapons]

nah, I don't think you're wrong - I actually agree - when you are in an environment that allows it - like a ring. check out this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElB3klqZ1-Y

THIS is what I am used to seeing. there are a few things you will notice right off the bat:

1. it's very sloppy.

2. it's very violent

3. it is like 99.7% head hunting

4. there is a lot of grappling, both standing and on the ground

5. there are for the most part no kicks unless the opponent was down.

6. all of the punches are in bunches - not a few well placed ones used to keep distance.

[Rainbow_Warrior]

. it's very sloppy.

2. it's very violent

3. it is like 99.7% head hunting

4. there is a lot of grappling, both standing and on the ground

5. there are for the most part no kicks unless the opponent was down.

6. all of the punches are in bunches - not a few well placed ones used to keep distance.

Agree 200 %...That is exactly the way I think about this topic.

Other two cents.... In addition of that most people do head hunting....those hits landed in the chest or belly arent painfull when those kind of people execute them.( and less painfull with the adrenaline).

Its very hard to see an unskilled fighter Knocking out other guy with body attacks... ( unless they are in the floor , kicking like 9 weapons said)

[Existence_is _suffering]

Interesting point you make, all about preferance really... If your guard provides a lot of protection to your thorax, chance is that they will go for the face, expect it and counter... Personally, I hold my guard low, as to encourage a punch in the face, wait for it, grab their arm (pretty quick reflexes) and either take-down, lock, throw or in an extremely pressing situation, a chop to the throat... Having a guard up at all is to: a) protect from a blow/protect especially vulnerable areas. b) Minimising your opponents options on where to hit you IMHO....

That and reading Bearich's post should get my point across! lol.