what's the point? (if there is one.....)

[G95champ]

thats the thing if a person is really going to hurt you it prob. don't much matter what you know. My point was going for a gun will more likely get you killed if you do not have the guts to use it and most of us do not want to ever shoot another person.

At least I hope not.

[Martial_Artist]

...My point was going for a gun will more likely get you killed if you do not have the guts to use it and most of us do not want to ever shoot another person.

At least I hope not.

This logic is useless. What you're saying is that you hope no one here would ever want to shoot, i.e. kill another person?

Do you not train in the martial arts? Are not most of us training for "self-defense"? What is the ultimate purpose of self-defense? I will tell you: It is to preserve your life at the expense of another.

Is that always the case? I most certainly state it is not. But if you are not willing to kill to keep your life, then what good are you as a martial artist?

The universal human phobia is interpersonal human aggression. When engaged in a life or death situation you either have the will to fight to life or you attempt to flee and do all that you can to avoid the fight. This is mental. Mental preparation is one of the most key factors in combat success.

When faced with the stress of another human being trying to take your life your body undergoes several physiological changes. Your heart rate increases for one. Stress induced heart rate is a cause for other changes in your ability to function. You may acquire tunnel vision, audio exclusion, loss of bowel control as your body pools blood into the core to compensate for possible blood loss in the extremities, loss of fine motor control. In extreme levels of elevated heart rate you may experience what is known as condition black, you may paralyze, have distracting thoughts, or be entirely gripped by fear.

The thing is most of can accept the tragedies caused by nature, i.e. hurricanes, tornados, floods, because there is no personal aspect to it.

The tragedy of having another human being working will and intent to kill you is sometimes too hard for many people to cope with. The after effects are too strong.

Thus, when you are engaged in combat for your life. The means of the fight are supplemental to the actual combat itself. Whether someone is trying to beat your death with his hands, stab you with a knife, or shoot you with a gun, the elements of the psychological part of combat do not change.

If you hope no one would want to shoot another person, then what kind of defender are you hoping for? One that will not make the critical decision at the final moment? That, I say, is a useless warrior. A paper tiger.

A warrior not willing to take the life of another to preserve life is not a warrior, but a burden.

Let me ask you this? Would you say the same about a martial artist not willing to take the life of another with his/her bare hands? Would you so claim, "I hope none of us would want to take the life of another."?

Aggression. If you do not make the choice first, before ever getting involved in combat, that no matter what you are going home each and every day to your loved ones, then you have already lost the fight before it ever begins.

There are people out there who do not think twice, who would not flinch, at the opportunity to kill you, take your life away, for nothing, mere dollars or material things, or simply because you looked at them wrong.

I have seen it. I have seen someone shoot another man in the head over an argument concerning a pair of pants. I have seen someone stabbed several times for a helpful suggestion and offering that person a ride. I could go on, but I don't need to.

The aggravated assault rate has risen significantly over the past two decades. What does that mean? That means the number of times one person tries to take the life of another has nearly doubled. While it is quoted that the murder rate is down; this is not a reflection of the violence. Medical technology has improved so much that what would have killed someone twenty years ago is fixed in surgery. What must be observed is the rate of people trying to kill another: the aggravated assault rate.

If you do not decide now, before the fight, that you will be the one who goes home, then you have lost. Their will to kill will be greater than your will to live.

Now, let me state, this does not mean that every fight you get in ends in death. Far from it. The skilled warrior is far more capable of ending a violent conflict without the loss of life than the untrained. And, in fact, should seek to end the conflict without the taking of any life.

HOWEVER, the warrior should be fully prepared to take life to save life.

Any warrior that is unable to do that has no place serving in the role of a warrior.

This is especially important for police officers and soldiers. The lives of not only the public, but their commrades depends on their decision to take the life of another to save life of an innocent.

So, I think that the statement I hope none of us would want to shoot anyone is a flawed statement. I think it represents a potential weakness and strays from the warrior code.

Like I said earlier. You are either a sheep, a wolf, or a sheepdog.

I recommend to anyone interested in combat to research the book On Combat by Lt. Dave Grossman, a leading expert in the physiological and psychological effects of combat. He frequently provides seminars to law enforcement and military personnel. Also I recommend Sharpening the Warrior's Edge by Bruce K. Siddle. And the Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker.

On a final note, I do not want anyone to think I advocate a joy in killing. Far from it. It is a sad reflection on society to be put in a position to have to take another life. However, there will always be murderers and evil men. What I advocate is the decision to take their lives, IF NECESSARY, in order to protect yours or a loved ones. If you can resolve the situation any other way, then do it.

This is the importance of training. The skilled, trained, and experience warrior will be able to diffuse or deescalate many situations in order to prevent them from turning into a life or death predicament. But he must be ready for those situations in which he faces the opponent who want to take his life.

9 out 10 fights will never be the one where your life is on the line. But we train not for the nine we know the outcome of, we train for the 1 that matters most. The 1 that determines whether or not we go home at the end of the day.

Martial Artist.

[Patrick]

I think that's what G95champ said. At least, that's what I took from it. I think if you asked the average police offer, they would tell you that they don't ever want to shoot another person. But, when they have to, they will. I'm sure most police offers would be most happy if they never had to fire their gun once in their entire career. It's not something they want to do. But, it's something they have to do. It doesn't mean they want to do it. (It's a little like cleaning or going to the dentist, in that regard. )

[Martial_Artist]

Well, I understood his post differently (one of the inherent flaws of written correspondence; it's impossible to convey the vocal and emotional inflection of the human voice).

I agree with you. Most Officers don't want to shoot another person, but are willing, if so needed.

And if it is a matter of simply miscommunication, then let my post stand not as a reprimand, but as simply informative to martial artists who are wondering what is the point of studying.

I firmly believe in the warrior society of old. I live it; I teach it to my sons. If it were not for the brave men and women of each and every generation, then we would surely be both damned and doomed.

So let it be, then. I will not wait for G95champ to respond. I will simply preempt the need by stating it was a misunderstanding. However, I leave my post for others to contemplate.

As for guns....well, that's a whole 'nuther can of worms I wouldn't want to open in this thread and sabotage the original topic. Suffice it to say every able and willing citizen should own a firearm and be trained in its use. I mean this to include martial artists.

[G95champ]

My point is close to what Pat said but let me add a bit to it.

A lot of people, women espically will carry a gun for self-defense. All Im saying if you carry it. You better be ready to use it. Because if you draw it and are not willing to shoot the person chances are they will take it from you or get away. (nothing wrong with them getting away btw)

Now as far as calling the use of a gun a Martial Art. I got no prob. with that just like archey IMO.

But I myself. It would not bother me to break a guys arm or even hit him in the throat but I don't know that I could pull the trigger on anyone. Unless it was in war.

People think the use of guns is the simple way out. SD without training my point was simply that no its not if you carry you better have the guts to use it. Let me add if you misuse it your going ot jail. Nothing worse than killing somone who was not an attacker by mistake. Hard to do that with an kick, punch, elbow, or joint lock.

[G95champ]

Ill add its harder than most think to kill a man with one strike. Yeah it can be done but lets be honest if it happend a lot a lot more guys would be dead and MMA and Boxing would be banned. Not to mention baseball, hockey, and any other sport where one could get hit and die often.

[bushido_man96]

Just a quick note to Martial_Artist; I think you want to look at aggravated battery cases, as opposed to aggravated assault. Assaut is merely verbal threat; batter is actual, physical contact.

As far as killing goes, it is one thing to say this or that, and to say "I would do this or that" when the situation has never happened. It is quite another when the situation actually arises. I think that everyone can survive; I don't think that everyone is capable of killing. Hence, the sheep in your analogy.

Overall, you make a lot of good points, though.

[Patrick]

No worries, MA. Everyone's just sharing thoughts.

Patrick

[Martial_Artist]

Just a quick note to Martial_Artist; I think you want to look at aggravated battery cases, as opposed to aggravated assault. Assaut is merely verbal threat; batter is actual, physical contact.

Actually, battery is a regional term when applied to assaults. The FBI Uniform Crime Report does not list battery anywhere. It is grouped under assault. Aggravated assault is a part I crime. Part I crimes mostly deal with persons and not property (mostly).

For exampled, in Arizona, there is no battery charge. There is either assault or aggravated assault, with their many subsets. Verbal assault, under Arizona law, could fall under disorderly conduct or under threats and intimidating depending on the content of the language.

You hear in certain regions "assault and battery". Because, as it appears in your region, there is a distinction between assault and battery. However, as far as crime statistics reporting goes to the FBI for national tracking, there is not a distinction made for battery (battery simply does not exist outside of its regional uses).

However, I appreciated the attempt to help. This is important to those reading that may live in an area where there is a distinction between assault and battery. For example, if you had not known that national crime statistics track physical attacks with a dangerous instrument or deadly weapon as assaults, you might have erroneously assumed the FBI stat referred to aggravated verbal attacks rather than aggravated physical assaults. Now, this is clear.

As I said in my other post, the preparation is mental. The physical training only facilitates the mental decision and helps the body deal with the effects of combat-related stress.

MA

[Zanshin]

This thread is getting really heavy. And hearing terms like battery, and assault reminds me of a joke.

Two kids are arrested, the first for battery, the second for stealing fireworks;

The first was charged and the second was let off!

Martial_Artist, I don’t wish to diminish what you have written, but dont you think your approach to a simple question is a bit harsh. Surely there are more reasons to study Martial arts than just self defence.

And just out of interest what is the "Pure Art" that you study.

Maybe we are all missing something