Opinions on "Japanese" terms in class.

[DWx]

Perhaps a physical demo is all you need if your system contains only physical techniques. But for alot of systems, particularly those focused on self defense, there is a large psychological component to the training that cant really be expressed or fully understood through a physical demo.

So to me it still seems that conveying anything other than a physical technique(that you probably already know how to do, and are just drilling) is near impossible unless you understand the language the instructor is talking in, or have a translator at hand.

If all I did when I taught classes was show white belts what to do, and then made them to copy-cat me, and did nothing else, they would not be geared to test for a very long time. Physical demonstration is great, but I also talk about the little nuances of the technique as I am demonstrating it. Physical, along with verbal, is the best combination.

Maybe you should both try seeing what it is like learning where you can't understand the language. It is a lot easier than you think. Also generally it is only more advanced grades and adults that will attend overseas events with someone who doesn't speak their language so they can grasp the concepts fairly quickly as it follows directly on from their prior learning. Quite often its not the words you learn through but the tone of voice and actions that accompany it. Ever watched tv with the sound off? You can still understand whats going on. In fact ever watched tv abroad? You can still understand what is happening. Babies and young children learn at first through tone of voice rather than actually words. So do animals like dogs actually. Of course they don't understand the words but can understand through intonations in the voice. Its when we get older that we don't notice intonations as much and don't bother with them in day to day life. Seriously though, I think you should try having someone teach you in a different language and see that its not really that hard if you are willing to learn.

I know that there are spelling variations; that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about totally different words, Korean words, for some of the techniques that we do.

Could you give an example?

[DisgruntledGirl]

If all I did when I taught classes was show white belts what to do, and then made them to copy-cat me, and did nothing else, they would not be geared to test for a very long time. Physical demonstration is great, but I also talk about the little nuances of the technique as I am demonstrating it. Physical, along with verbal, is the best combination.

I can see part of where you are coming from in the "uselessness" of the language of origin in learning an "Art" if all you are wanting to learn is how to defend yourself.

But there will always be at least two reasons why I think it woudl still be a good idea to be taught:

1.) for some it is and will always just be "cooler" if taught in the originating language even if it is not exactly conversational and is only a few words here and there.

2.) Even if you dont find it "cool", for nothing other than tournaments in which you have participants from many countries, it can be very usefull if everything from scoring to the names of the forms to anything else that can be said in one or two words can just be said one way without need for translation. I personally never intend to enter a tournament mind you, but you have to teach for one the way you teach for all.

Yeah, it's not needed in your day to day classes, but for some things it can just make life easier.

[bushido_man96]

1.) for some it is and will always just be "cooler" if taught in the originating language even if it is not exactly conversational and is only a few words here and there.

XMA is cool, too, but there are lots of differing opinions on it as well. I am not against XMA, or against the use of languages like Japanese in Karate. I just don't feel that it is as necessary as many think. I honestly think that the main reason for the use of the native language is because when many of the Japanese masters began teaching those in West, they didn't speak very good English. So, instead of trying to learn the English, they went with what they knew.

[Zanshin]

Well... looks like your view (although entitled to of course) is in the minority.

Fact is Eastern MA like karate and TKD did not originate in the west, and the best exponents of them are not here, they are in Korea/Japan.

[cross]

Well... looks like your view (although entitled to of course) is in the minority.

Just because something seems like a good idea to alot of people, doesnt mean it is. Like alot of things in TMA, it seems that most will teach the terminology in a different language because "thats what i was taught", and the reason their instructor taught them this way is because thats how they were taught. So they are doing it because thats how its always been done, so it must be right? When logically, the best way to teach a person something is to relate it to them in a language they are familiar with.

[bushido_man96]

Well... looks like your view (although entitled to of course) is in the minority.

Just because something seems like a good idea to alot of people, doesnt mean it is. Like alot of things in TMA, it seems that most will teach the terminology in a different language because "thats what i was taught", and the reason their instructor taught them this way is because thats how they were taught. So they are doing it because thats how its always been done, so it must be right? When logically, the best way to teach a person something is to relate it to them in a language they are familiar with.

I agree with Cross here. Some things just keep getting carried on and on, when there may not be a really legitimate reason for it. Then, it falls back into the catch-all of being "tradition."

[bushido_man96]

I know that there are spelling variations; that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about totally different words, Korean words, for some of the techniques that we do.

Could you give an example?

I have seen a punch listed as "chungdan chirugi." We say "ahp ju mak." I have seen high block listed as "chukyo marki." We say "san dan maki." Those are just a few examples.

Edited February 1, 2008 by bushido_man96

[Killer Miller]

Here's the way I see this topic.

At lower levels I felt it was "cool" to learn another language. But felt it really wasn't necessary to learn Japanese terms just in order to learn Karate - of course I'm referring to me learning a Japanese Traditional Art...

However, in higher levels, you find that there are many interpretations or meanings of a Japanese "word" or "Kanji" character. The more you learn the language, the more you realize that each school or instructor has a slightly different interpretation or meaning and this interpretation or meaning is re-translated and passed down to technique. The end result is typically pretty close to the same, but how quickly you get there and how well you understand it is another issue.

So in light of this non-standard flaw in the arts, through the lack of really wanting to learn the culture and languages, technique and concepts vary a great deal as the result - some good, some bad, and some great...

- Killer -

[DWx]

I know that there are spelling variations; that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about totally different words, Korean words, for some of the techniques that we do.

Could you give an example?

I have seen a punch listed as "chungdan chirugi." We say "ahp ju mak." I have seen high block listed as "chukyo marki." We say "san dan maki." Those are just a few examples.

"Ahp jumak" translates only as front forefist. If you want to be specific technically speaking you should add the "chirugi" bit to it so you get "ahp jumak chirugi" or front forefist punch. "Chung dan" just denotes the mid section.

"Chukyo" means a rising motion that takes place above the shoulder line, thus you get a high section rising block. "San dan" just denotes the high section so both terms are correct for the block as it is rising and above high section. However the terms are different parts of namingthe technique. "San dan" could be used to denote any high section block whereas "Chukyo" is specific to the rising motion above shoulder line.

In both of these examples it is just a case of missing half the sentence off rather than name changes. To be totally accurate you should have " Chung dan ahp jumak chirugi" and "San dan chukyo makgi". Its not a different name as such, just laziness on both sides to say the entire name.

[bushido_man96]

You see, just saying "high block" saves time.