Opinions on "Japanese" terms in class.

[DWx]

But you still need an International standard language so that instructors from outside your native tongue can teach you. If you are in say a Japanese system then there are plenty of Japanese masters/teachers who would be definiately worth having a lesson off, you can't expect them to teach you in English if they aren't fluent. If you go to Europe or Aisa or wherever to train then if everyone knows a standard name for each technique life is going to be so much easier. You won't have to spend time messing around with translating the words "front punch" and can just get on with it. It makes sense (IMO anyway) for everyone, whatever country your from and whatever language you speak, to know one name per technique so that you can communicate. And if you have to pick that one language to communicate in then why not pick the language it where it comes from because chances are there are going to be more practitioners/teachers/masters speaking it natively.

This is something ive never understood. Lets say for example you are an english speaking student and you go to a japanese school to learn karate, with no knowledge of the japanese language other than the technique names you know from your english speaking country.

The instructor is attempting to explain the finer points of a technique, take age uke(rising block) for example.

So the instructor says in japanese: One of the most important principles of age uke is to drive not only with the arm, but also with the hips.

So out of the instructors explanation of the technique, the only thing you will understand is the "age uke", which doesnt really help.

So logically, it makes more sense to me that if you want to learn a system in a different country(just like doing anything else in another country) learn the language of the country. Because chances are that knowing a few technique names will be of little or no use, unless you can understand everything else that is being said in between.

Like I said in one of my earlier posts, its not a problem. A good instructor will demonstrate anyway. I've just spent all weekend on this seminar where the Master couldn't say anything apart from words like "like this", "not this" etc. Yet he could command the class tell us he wanted us to turn, pair up, go through the forms by count. We all understood what he meant and if we needed clarification then you just stand up, say the name of the technique and get him to demonstrate applications or ready positions, whatever you needed.

[cross]

It still seems that anything beyond a basic physical demonstration of the technique would be lost in translation.

[bushido_man96]

It still seems that anything beyond a basic physical demonstration of the technique would be lost in translation.

My point as well.

[bushido_man96]

I do feel learning the proper term for a movement, stance, kata etc... in its native form is important. It should be used in class, but not be considered mandatory to earn a rank. If I decided to attend a shotokan training outside of my facility and could not follow the head instructor because he was using japanese terms, what would that say about me as a nidan?

Consider that if every english speaking instructor used only english then you wouldnt have a problem at all.

Also keep in mind that in most schools that use terminology from the native language of the system, they often have 2 names for the same thing, i.e. the name of the technique in the systems native language, and then the name of the technique in the instructors/students native language. So in my opinion, cut out the language that you dont normally speak and streamline the system to avoid confusion.

But you still need an International standard language so that instructors from outside your native tongue can teach you. If you are in say a Japanese system then there are plenty of Japanese masters/teachers who would be definiately worth having a lesson off, you can't expect them to teach you in English if they aren't fluent. If you go to Europe or Aisa or wherever to train then if everyone knows a standard name for each technique life is going to be so much easier. You won't have to spend time messing around with translating the words "front punch" and can just get on with it. It makes sense (IMO anyway) for everyone, whatever country your from and whatever language you speak, to know one name per technique so that you can communicate. And if you have to pick that one language to communicate in then why not pick the language it where it comes from because chances are there are going to be more practitioners/teachers/masters speaking it natively.

Only if you feel the need to take classes with those from other countries. I don't really feel the need to do so.

This is something ive never understood. Lets say for example you are an english speaking student and you go to a japanese school to learn karate, with no knowledge of the japanese language other than the technique names you know from your english speaking country.

The instructor is attempting to explain the finer points of a technique, take age uke(rising block) for example.

So the instructor says in japanese: One of the most important principles of age uke is to drive not only with the arm, but also with the hips.

So out of the instructors explanation of the technique, the only thing you will understand is the "age uke", which doesnt really help.

So logically, it makes more sense to me that if you want to learn a system in a different country(just like doing anything else in another country) learn the language of the country. Because chances are that knowing a few technique names will be of little or no use, unless you can understand everything else that is being said in between.

I agree. There is going to come a point when the limited knowledge of the language through technique terminology is not going to do you any more good. Therefore, it is back to square one, and you will need more of a translation.

[bushido_man96]

If I decided to attend a shotokan training outside of my facility and could not follow the head instructor because he was using japanese terms, what would that say about me as a nidan?

It doesn't take anything away from your rank. In the end, it doesn't matter if it is called a dollyo chagi, or a round kick; as long as you make it work, that is what matters.

[Zanshin]

Only if you feel the need to take classes with those from other countries. I don't really feel the need to do so.

But many of us do train with those from other countries.

I train and (used to) compete in many different countries, and whilst your logic is sound it's perhaps a bit insular. Whilst I accept that the finer technical nuances could be lost on someone who doesn't understand the language being spoken, there is a “universal language” thing here.

As mentioned in an earlier post I will be training in Germany in a few weeks time on a course being run by the German Wado-kai with the guest instructors being from Japan. There will be students from all over Europe. During the Kihon, imagine how hard it would be to say "Ok everyone lets do roundhouse kick, on my count and.. 1 and 2 and 3 etc. in Italian, French, German, English etc...

Instead everyone there will understand "Mawashigeri ichi, ni, san etc.

But... there will be translators there as well, and they will probably do it in English, so I understand what you are saying. It works both ways I guess.

There is also the bigger picture here, in that people enjoy the fact that their Karate classes are taught in Japanese / Korean is it adds to the perceived "authenticity".

[bushido_man96]

But... there will be translators there as well, and they will probably do it in English, so I understand what you are saying. It works both ways I guess.

What you are talking about are the very basics. Yes, everyone will know what the Japanese for round kick is, but beyond that, any technical information will be out of touch. In order to make it flow smoothly, the Japanese does help, I agree.

There is also the bigger picture here, in that people enjoy the fact that their Karate classes are taught in Japanese / Korean is it adds to the perceived "authenticity".

As far as I'm concerned, I could care less about knowing the Korean terminology of my techniques. During my time in the ATA, I didn't learn the Korean name for any of the techniques. Now, I know the Korean terminology for the techniques that I do, but the terminology that I know doesn't match up with those that I have seen in other books. Go figure.

[DWx]

It still seems that anything beyond a basic physical demonstration of the technique would be lost in translation.

What you are talking about are the very basics. Yes, everyone will know what the Japanese for round kick is, but beyond that, any technical information will be out of touch. In order to make it flow smoothly, the Japanese does help, I agree.

You don't need anything more than physical demonstration really. And as for more advanced concepts I find I understand them better by being shown not told. Demonstrating applications, physically showing why such and such a movement doesn't work, actually doing stuff rather than talking about it is much better and to be honest you'd be surprised how much can be conveyed through actions rather than words.

Also so much more can be conveyed through one word in the Asian languages than the Germanic languages. For example Golcho (Korean) doen't exactly translate as "hooking" in English but its the closest word we have for the concept. Plenty of people at this recent seminar I was on were actually hooking their hand for golcho makgi because they thought that because of the English name that you were supposed to do it like that. Master Hwang (without translation) demonstrated what golcho actually means and that to physically "hook" is described by the word "goro". Golcho actually is more like to place or hang, an action like hanging your jacket on a coat hook, whilst goro is a curved hooking motion. We then got shown why doing a goro motion wouldn't work and why it is necessary for a golcho motion. Chinese, Japanese, Korean etc. languages are built upon words with layered meanings, take for example the word "teacher" in Mandarin. It consists of the idea of "listening", "knowledge" etc. to build up this concept of "teaching". In English we don't have that, just the noun. Its because of this lots of concepts get lost upon translation or we simply don't have the vocabulary to accomodate the concepts involved.

It doesn't take anything away from your rank. In the end, it doesn't matter if it is called a dollyo chagi, or a round kick; as long as you make it work, that is what matters.

If you said round kick to the people I train with only a handful will know what you're talking about. We call it the "turning kick". If however you use the Korean standard name then we will all know what each other means. Also through using the Korean term will help you fully understand the movement. Front punch is "ap joomuk jirugi". The beginning part of "jirugi" denotes a twisting motion at the end of the movement so when you get kicks like side piercing kick called "yop cha jirugi" you know that the motion should finish with a slight twist to the entire leg.

As far as I'm concerned, I could care less about knowing the Korean terminology of my techniques. During my time in the ATA, I didn't learn the Korean name for any of the techniques. Now, I know the Korean terminology for the techniques that I do, but the terminology that I know doesn't match up with those that I have seen in other books. Go figure.

Different terminolgy will arise from the Romanization of the Korean characters. You get situations like the word "kwon" in Taekwondo should be properly be pronounced with an initial sound somewhere between the "k" and "g" sound. Thats why TKD can be spelt Taegwondo and "maggi" can be interchanged with "makgi". Similarly the "t" and "d" are interchangable so Dan Gun can become Tan Gun etc.

[cross]

You don't need anything more than physical demonstration really. And as for more advanced concepts I find I understand them better by being shown not told. Demonstrating applications, physically showing why such and such a movement doesn't work, actually doing stuff rather than talking about it is much better and to be honest you'd be surprised how much can be conveyed through actions rather than words.

Perhaps a physical demo is all you need if your system contains only physical techniques. But for alot of systems, particularly those focused on self defense, there is a large psychological component to the training that cant really be expressed or fully understood through a physical demo.

So to me it still seems that conveying anything other than a physical technique(that you probably already know how to do, and are just drilling) is near impossible unless you understand the language the instructor is talking in, or have a translator at hand.

[bushido_man96]

You don't need anything more than physical demonstration really. And as for more advanced concepts I find I understand them better by being shown not told. Demonstrating applications, physically showing why such and such a movement doesn't work, actually doing stuff rather than talking about it is much better and to be honest you'd be surprised how much can be conveyed through actions rather than words.

If all I did when I taught classes was show white belts what to do, and then made them to copy-cat me, and did nothing else, they would not be geared to test for a very long time. Physical demonstration is great, but I also talk about the little nuances of the technique as I am demonstrating it. Physical, along with verbal, is the best combination.

Different terminolgy will arise from the Romanization of the Korean characters. You get situations like the word "kwon" in Taekwondo should be properly be pronounced with an initial sound somewhere between the "k" and "g" sound. Thats why TKD can be spelt Taegwondo and "maggi" can be interchanged with "makgi". Similarly the "t" and "d" are interchangable so Dan Gun can become Tan Gun etc.

I know that there are spelling variations; that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about totally different words, Korean words, for some of the techniques that we do.