Firearms???

[Iron Arahat]

I support my opinion with facts. Why do statistics make you feel like you know so little?

 

Well seeing as your guns are locked up, it's good you train martial arts so you can fight your way to your guns to get them out.

 

It's good for some people to rely on a cruch for insecurities they may have with themselves. Guns being one of them. Insecurities and a blatant disregards to the facts perpetuates myths.

 

Remember that as I said in one of my earlier posts "Guns kept in the home for self-protection are 43 times more likely to kill a family member or friend than to kill in self-defense." [ Kellermann and Reay, N.E. Journal of Medicine]

 

If someone considers suicide in a household with a gun, they are more likely to be successful. Hopefully if you have or ever have kids that they don't get a hold of your guns. I can tell you there is nothing more depressing than watching a mother try to shove her childs brain back into his head, and begging the paramedics to save him, when the top of his head is completely gone.

 

Withers stated "Luckily for me I own firearms and you don't." That's a mature attitude to have, does it make you feel more powerful, like you have the upper hand.

 

 

[Withers M.A.A.]

Obviously you're the one who is insecure. Yeah I feel so much more powerful than you because I have guns. This is a no win situation but luckily for me firearms WILL be in our future and will always have a place in society weather people like yourself agree with it or not. If you don't like them don't own them.

 

As for my owning a firearm because I'm insecure that is rediculous. Do you train in Martial Arts because you are a wimp??? I'm sure you've trained with martial arts weapons so you are no better than me. Samurai killed thousands of men with swords so should no one own one either? Or is that something different?

 

As you have a fascination for Martial Arts I have that and the same for firearms. My primary purpose is for recreation and I hardly ever carry. (maybe 3 times per year) I'm sorry if it makes me a bad person because I shoot in competitions and go to the range on a regular basis.

 

Thanks to the media and movies firearms are given a bad reputation and living in a country where they blame the gun and not the person is unfortunate. Instead of asking what is wrong with our society and how can we raise people so they don't want to kill themselves, commit crimes, and murder we ask how can we get firearms out of society? that is rediculous. Weather guns are legal or not they will always be on the streets.

 

If You want to kill yourself you don't need a gun to do it. If you are thinking about suicide you will do it. PERIOD!!! Weather you jump off a building or sit in a garage with a car running. GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE...

 

As for parents who have kids and the kids pick the gun up and shoot themselves or their friends the parents should be punished. I NEVER leave a gun lying around. It is always locked up in a fireproof safe that only I have the combination to.

 

Instead of creating new laws and banning guns the government needs to punish people more severely when they commit crimes with handguns. That is the only way to reduce firearm crime.

 

Believe me I'm not blind about firearm deaths but you have to know that 99.99% of LEGAL gun owners are great citizens. It is the illegal guns that are commiting the crimes and if guns are banned or not these guns will still be on the streets.

 

If you ban guns also, the blackmarket will be flooded with them giving criminals more access to them.

 

Pete

 

p.s. Please close this thread!!!

 

 

[Iron Arahat]

I see nothing wrong with competitive sport firearms, keep the gun at the club not at home. I never faulted anyone for a recreational sport. In one of my first posts in this thread I stated that guns should be kept in gun clubs.

 

The US is responsible for 78% of the Black Market of illegal firearms. Illegal guns start from legal means, it is a legal market that fuels illegal trade.

 

If you are always locking up your gun in a safe, it won't be accessable for self defense in the home, as you have place so much value on.

 

As for my insecurity (which I have none), I have merely debated a fact. I'm not asking for a thread to be closed because I don't like what I hear, or I can't debate a point without getting bent out of shape about it. I am presenting an educated point of view to the subject. You stated you were a fireams activist, obviously you let emotion blind you point of view.

 

Do I train martial arts because I am a whimp, the answer to that is "no" so I can better protect the public in the line of duty. I also train people in the arts to make the community a better place to live.

 

You seem very insecure and/ or emotional, I never claimed to be better than you Withers.

 

If you had seen that kid that commited suicide, like I did, you too would question the reason that a firearm is in an urban home. Maybe he would of killed himself anyways, but the gun was alot more final. Alot of people who commit suicide do it a s a cry for help. Less fatal means ie. slashing you can actually save the life. Later on these people who had full intention of killing themselves, are glad to be alive.

 

Yes there will always be guns in society, but better control are needed. Canada has enacted tougher laws, and stronger penalties against those with illegal arms. It's a start.

 

 

 

[ This Message was edited by: Iron Arahat on 2002-06-01 00:32 ]

[Withers M.A.A.]

I agree with you on the point of tougher punishment from criminals. I stated the same. Certain people should NOT own guns PERIOD!!! However, those responsible enough to keep them locked up and out of childrens hands. I don't like the idea of firearms being used for crimes but by taking them away from lawful citizens it will just create more crime. My g/f's father who worked late nights saved his own life during a robbery attemp because he had a handgun on him. So they are not for all bad. I can see your point and your argument but in return you must see mine also.

 

Pete

 

 

[Iron Arahat]

There is a good reason that I believe that guns belong in gun clubs for the public.

 

If you do target shooting, biathlon, big game hunting, and so on if you legally obtain a firarm fine. Beyond that is there really a need?

 

I understand why people feel a need to own firearms for self defense. People just need to understand that owning a firearm can potentially raise the stakes in any confrontational situation.

 

[ This Message was edited by: Iron Arahat on 2002-06-04 23:27 ]

[Martial_Artist]

DEVIL'S ADVOCATE

 

I am not stating an opinion for either side of the argument. Just a comment.

 

Iron Arahat(I need to know what your name implies?) It would seem to me that what you truly seek is the control of gun manufactre. From what I have read of your informative posts I gather that gun manufactre is the root of evil. [q]Illegal guns start from legal means,...[/q] So wouldn't you say then that it should start at the source first?

 

I don't think the issue lies in banning guns, but in better control of who has the guns. Take guns from law-abiding citizens. You do some good. Guns will still be made and criminals will still gain access to them. Yes, there are too many guns in the hands of unskilled, and unprepared law-abiding citizens. Not everyone should own a gun. There are people who just shouldn't own one. But you shouldn't take away someone's right to. A gun is very deadly. Why a gun would be near a child is beyond my comprehension. Guns kill people because of the people using them. It is irrelevant to state an inanimate object can or can't do anything.

 

This topic has strayed from the original post topic and probably should be moved to something clearer.

 

I think, this is my opinion based on experience, the reasons guns play such a role in death is largely because of the society in which we live. I have lived in a third-world country(the Philippines) for a long time. Children there have a different view of guns than children here. A gun, not legally owned by many but owned by a lot, is looked at not as something a child touches or concerns himself with. Children there do not run around trying to kill themselves in play wars. An acquaintance of mine in a remote town in the Philippines owns a gun and it is kept very accessible; his children have nothing to do with it. There is no curiousity, no wonder as to what it does. The culture is different. This accounts for a great number of the people I know in the Philippines(many of which are Police and Military servicemen.)

 

The factors are many and conjecture can lead to a thousand arguments. But why guns play a major role in death in our society is because that is how our society wants guns to be used. Superman could not be killed by guns and Billy the Kid killed many with a gun. Put the two together and you end up with stupidty. Case in point, my nephew was shot in the head with a BB gun by his friend.(He didn't die, but the BB is still lodged in his head. We are all thankful it wasn't a gun) Why? I can't say exactly but I can give a good guess. Because they had grown up with the false image that guns are like the powers of Superman: FANTASY. When, in fact, they are REALITY.

 

The solution, in my opinion(then again, what do I know, right?) is not to remove the gun. It is to control the gun. I enjoy recreational shooting, but I would hate having to go to a range to do it. We may never be able to ever solve the reason by many gun deaths. I don't see the tools existing in our society. Living so high up in prosperity has given too many of us an invincible mentality. We live comfortably, we enjoy things so many do not. We view ourselves invincible and immortal(two dangerous traits). Because of this we play with fire. We have no fear of getting burned; sadly, more often than not we do get burned.

 

I believe, I do believe this, that if society had a different view on the gun. If society had a different view on itself. If our culture was not so high-strung on itself. Then the discussion over gun control would be unnecessary. We wouldn't need to discuss it, we wouldn't have to.

 

Alas, it is not so. We cannot solve the ails of the world simply by removing the scapegoat. The problem is much more deeply rooted. Cut the weed off, the root will grow again. Kill the root, the weed will never grow.

 

If it is human life we are concerned about saving, then it is the human that we must save. This change, however, I do not see as ever happenning. There are too many 'stupid' people(I make no reference to anyone on this forum) who won't change, who view themselves as above-the-rest, and will continue to kill their brother in a game.

 

Guns do kill people. But only because the person holding it killed first. Oh how wonderful it would be if a person never considered shooting themself to end their life. People have been killing themselves forever. Blame society for placing too many false pretenses that we must live to fulfill for causing the depressing downfall of ego and driving many to take their lives.

 

Crime? We could discuss eternally the reasons behind crime.

 

Again, I don't we can solve everything, or even really help, until great cultural change occurs. We can't save it by killing the sacrificial scapegoat, nor by liberalizing everything. I don't want to seem the pessimist, but I don't honestly see any change occuring. Take guns away, people will still die by guns. Let guns run, people will die. It is the person behind the gun. It is the gun that got into that person's hand. It is much more than all of that.

 

My 2(two) shillings.(Have I spelt that right?)

[Iron Arahat]

I would say the gun manufacturers are to a degree to blame for part of the problems associated with guns. In the late 1980s, the gun industry began targeting women to counter slumping handgun sales among its primary market of white males. The false message delivered by gunmakers was clear: the greatest threat posed to a woman was an attack by a stranger and, the best form of protection a woman could rely upon was a handgun. Even thought the probability of this threat was slim (view previous posts).

 

Illegal guns start from legal means, but if they are sold legally, can we hold a company responsible for illegal transactions after the point of legal sales?

 

I too believe that an all-out ban of guns is not the answer, but in fact futher control. Guns do have a role in society, but it should be limited. People who target shoot can be part of a gun club. In many countries this is the case, the gun resides at the gun club, because there is no need for a handgun to be away from the club, especially in an urban setting. The guns move from club to club for competition, and the club and the owner are legally responsible for the gun itself.

 

It a rural setting a gun may be required to protect a residence from animals. Many people own guns in such a setting to shoot bears, or other problematic animals to their farm livestock like coyotes.

 

An abundance of firearms, because it is a right? Is a little extreme in my eyes. But the NRA in the US is a powerful political body. Guns are deep rooted in American culture, and it is unfortunate that the 'right' indirectly fuels the illegal gun trade. Maybe have people lock up their guns in safes or in clubs would help aliviate some of the problem, rather than have them in a dresser drawer.

 

Socialization plays a huge role in things, but alas social problems are so deep rooted in many things that it is very difficult to change if at all even possible. The way we are socialized is the way in which we learn, and molds who we become in many cases. Some people are indeed victims of socialization. One poor guy was a victim of a handgun down the front of his pants, shooting his leg, and powder burning a sensitive area. Why did he do that I'm sure it was because of movies, and trying to look cool.

 

I agree that this thread has taken a new direction than probably initially started, but has turned into a good discussion nonetheless.

 

As form my handle "Iron" is my ring name. Started as half serious, half joke, but a name that was given to me by others, a long story. 'Arahat' or 'Lohan' was originally a bandit who roamed China until he befriended a buddhist monk. The Lohan then spent his life undertaking a complete personal change. The Lohan became academic, and helped others through personal sacrifice.

 

 

[Withers M.A.A.]

Well this discussion def. drifted to a different tone. hehe

 

As for guns killing people at least we all agree to the fact that it is people who kill people. Guns if used properly are no more dangerous than a power tool.

 

It is a fact that more people die in swimming pools so should we now ban those? I don't have exact numbers but i'm sure I could round them up. I agree that there are a lot of people who carry who are untrained. Law Enforcement officials are sometimes the worst. This is a fact!!! I'm friends with a few police officers and they have the worst gun handling skills I've ever seen to the point I will not go shooting with them. Just because they carry everyday doesn't mean they are highly trained. The only one of my friends who I trust is a MA State trooper who has had a LOT of training and has helped me out.

 

All in all this has drifted from what it was intended and I believe it should revert back to the original topic.

 

Pete

 

 

[Iron Arahat]

"It is a fact that more people die in swimming pools so should we now ban those? I don't have exact numbers but i'm sure I could round them up. I agree that there are a lot of people who carry who are untrained. Law Enforcement officials are sometimes the worst. This is a fact!!! I'm friends with a few police officers and they have the worst gun handling skills I've ever seen to the point I will not go shooting with them. Just because they carry everyday doesn't mean they are highly trained."

 

You should look up stats before you compare it ruins your credibility, 1994 - 1,851 Swimming Pool Deaths in the US compared to 38,505 firearms deaths (this rate includes accidents -NCIPC Publications).

 

As for the rest of the quote I do have issues with it.."I have a friend..." is not the best argument in the world. As for you "fact" on law enforcement, it is an "opinion"...and I won't even get started.

[Withers M.A.A.]

Put it this way.... When I took my safety course before getting my firearms liscence the instructors also warned us that police officers esp. had the worst gun handling skills. Not all but many. They went on stating when they come into the gunshop they were hands down the worst. If you don't belive this statement then call Instructional Shooting at: (978) 453-4193 or email ag@agguns.com. As for the previous statement I'll get the true numbers and not ones from almost 10 years ago. I'll work on more recent numbers. Also, because you throw out random numbers that doesn't give you any credibilty either because you don't state where you get your info. and if it is something you got online at an anti-gun site that doesn't account for anything. I could do the same by quoting things off the NRA website but again that I don't feel acounts for much.

 

So what about people like my g/f's father who saved himself with a firearm? Does that not account for anything? He isn't a Martial Artist yet because he was carrying he is still alive and unharmed. As for the loser who tried robbing him spending time behind bars says a lot.

 

I'm sorry you hate guns so much but I'm sick of having this rediculous discussion that isn't going anywhere.

 

CASE IN POINT: FIREARMS ARE HANDSDOWN THE MOST POWERFUL WEAPON FOR SELFDEFENSE

 

just as I stated at the beginning.

 

GOOD BYE AND GOOD LUCK!!!