Firearms???

[Iron Arahat]

Don Gwinn stated "How likely are those two scenarios?

 

Quote:

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

What has happened though is that there have been tighter controls put in place. Will it stop these things from happening? Probably not,

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

You take the quote a little out of context cutting out the qualifying statement, that indicates that tighter controls will make it hader for a repeat of Septemeber 11th,2002.

 

Let passangers carry guns on a plane to make it safer in your eyes is very short sighted.

 

Don Gwinn stated "With enough numbers, how on Earth could it make it "easier" to hijack an airplane?"

 

I'm sure the hostage, which could be your wife, child, baby, would be deterent enough for the average person to take a shot. I could talk for hours on criminal motivation, and psychology.

 

Also alowing guns on planes would one up a whole can of problems, what about those who have "air rage", and just happen to bring their handgun for the trip?

 

Nothing like a safe (sarcasim) shootout at 20,000 feet.

 

 

[Don Gwinn]

There's no safe shootout anywhere; there's nothing about being at 20,000 feet that makes it any more dangerous. No one is suggesting otherwise. Again, I will not respond to straw men (even straw men with the "sarcasm" inserted after.)

I'm sure the hostage, which could be your wife, child, baby, would be deterent enough for the average person to take a shot.

IF they manage to get a hostage before being ventilated, maybe so. I suppose it WOULD be better to let them have the plane and just hope they don't intend to kill a few hundred more people.

 

After all, we all know that when someone commits a crime, they REALLY don't want to hurt anyone because that might be an additional charge, right?

what about those who have "air rage", and just happen to bring their handgun for the trip?

Exactly what people said about "road rage" when CCW laws came in. It never happened.

 

"Air rage" is generally a guy who got a little tipsy and gets loud. If it went beyond that on a plane full of armed people. . . . well, you can imagine, and that's why it won't. An armed society is a polite society.

 

You are also still overlooking the proven public safety record of CCW holders. They commit almost no violent crime and their rates of all crimes are fractions of the general public's. This is only common sense, since they represent a group of people who have been screened and checked, as well as people who have already shown that given a choice between breaking a law and following it they will put themselves to no end of trouble, expense and risk to follow the law, even when it would be simple to break it and they would almost certainly never be caught.

 

These are not people who go around shooting people. That is not my opinion; I can state that fact with confidence because it has been carefully studied statistically and the statistics show it.

 

Since I took your quote out of context (you're right, I suppose I did) how about if you name one way the new controls make a repeat of Sept. 11th harder? I note that the only incident since, the Richard Reeves "shoe bomb" was not stopped by any of the new security measures. It was stopped when a stewardess noticed Reeves in the act. I'm sure all the people who got strip-searched by Ronnie the Drooling Guy Who Couldn't Cut It At Burger King felt a lot better knowing that their ordeal was such an integral part of stopping terrorism.

 

 

[Iron Arahat]

Don Gwinn stated "There's no safe shootout anywhere; there's nothing about being at 20,000 feet that makes it any more dangerous. "

 

I beg to differ here, by virtue of being at 20,000 feet in a delicate machine, with stray bullets flying could have some grave consequences for passengers, or possibly everyone. It's not a shootout between two individuals on dry land.

 

Don Gwinn "Air rage" is generally a guy who got a little tipsy and gets loud."

 

I never suspected you to be so complacent Don. Air rage has resulted in assaults on airlines of support staff, cabin crew, and other passangers. If someone looses control, what makes you think he just doesn't want to shoot someone. Heck some people make special trips to McDonalds to shoot up the place. At 20,000 feet is just as good if not better place to die.

 

As for tougher controls, activating all electronic devices, more thorough security checks, implementation of better equipment. Restriction of carry-on size and items permitted. Now there are always going to be ways, unless you strip everyone naked, and make them fly that way (but people could still hoop stuff). But from experience and I do fly a fair bit, security has increased, this will naturally detect more. Just remember everything isn't foolproof, even bringing a gun to a knife fight won't guarantee anything.

[ZR440]

On 2002-07-08 14:49, Don Gwinn wrote:

 

ZR440, what's it like up in Michigan nowadays? Lots of gun duels in the streets over parking spaces and fender benders? Does the blood running in the streets back up the sewers?

 

 

 

Oh yeah, it's just like the wild, wild, west up here. It has been one year since the CCW law was passed. About 53,000 permits issued, and 750 denied (an unpaid traffic ticket can be grounds for denial). Michigan State Police reports no increase in gun related deaths related to those who carry. I think that is due to the class that is required before the permit is issued. It's normally a two or three day course that requires 150-300 rounds to be shot at a firing range. Most of the class is general gun safety and usually has a lawyer or officer present to review the legal aspects of carrying a firearm.

 

I am planning on taking the class before the end of summer.

[Don Gwinn]

Sigh. I'd be interested in knowing how many of those assault incidents were committed by people who held CCWs (or people who could possibly have gotten one.) I say again, if you care to check the actual statistics showing what has actually happened in the U.S. in the last 15 years or so, you'll see that CCW holders are the most peaceful, law-abiding people anywhere. Your McDonald's example, for instance, was mentally ill. He couldn't have owned any firearm legally. Of course, California's response was to ban the type of firearm he used, as if that would matter.

 

An airliner is not a "delicate machine." Just about anything that could possibly be damaged or destroyed by a bullet has at least two redundant backups. The only things that could be harmed are the electronics or possibly hydraulics that have to be routed past the cabin, and even those are pretty far from the cabin. They'd be relatively well-protected.

 

I almost asked what it means to "hoop stuff," but I'm thinking I don't want to know.

 

ZR440, good on ya. Stay safe and keep your family safe as well. Don't listen to anyone who tells you that you somehow don't have the right to stay alive. You know better.

 

 

[Withers M.A.A.]

Here in MA. I had to take a safety course before I could even apply for my liscence to carry. I was tested at the course and when I passed I was issued a certificate. I then had to take that cert. to the police station in order to get an application. After completing the application I had to interview with the chief of police and explain why I wanted a L.T.C. and answer a few questions about scenarios. I was then finger printed. After that they do an FBI background check to see if I've had any criminal or mental problems in my past. They even dig into your childhood record and if you have any charges you will be denied. I had to wait almost 2 months to get the approval and then go back to the police station to sign for my liscence. Over all it took almost 4 months to get my permit between taking the course, setting an apt. with the police dept., waiting for my response etc. It is VERY difficult to obtain a L.T.C. in MA. There are also other laws in place in this state as to what firearms I can and can't buy. Major hoops to jump through and you people want even more.

[Iron Arahat]

I think what you went through is sufficient.

[Withers M.A.A.]

Well it was a long wait and difficult process but I feel confident in the hoops I had to jump through. This will weed out most of the people who shouldn't own a firearm. Even if you pass all the requirements and the officer doing the interview doesn't like the way you look he reserves the right to deny your request and only issue a licence for target practice only. Some towns in MA don't even issue licences to carry at all such as Lowell. Even the police are only issued on duty only. This city however, has the highest crime rate in the state. Go figure!!!

[Don Gwinn]

Could be worse--you could be in Illinois. There is NO CCW, ever, for any reason. No exceptions.

 

You're a battered woman and your husband has threatened your life? Sorry, no.

 

You're a cop whose department doesn't authorize carrying off-duty? Too bad. Oh? You say some Crip has threatened to kill your daughter and rape your wife? That's REALLY too bad. Good luck with that.

 

There is only one way to be allowed to carry a gun concealed in Illinois--be a law enforcement officer.

 

HOWEVER--if you are an alderman in Chicago, you are technically considered an LEO. Therefore, you don't NEED a permit to carry a concealed weapon. Thus we can't prove that these people who won't even let their citizens own firearms are carrying guns themselves by checking CCW records. CCW simply does not exist in Illinois.

 

However, we know they carry, at least some of them. How do we know this? Besides gossip, there is Dorothy "The Hat" Tillman."

 

"The Hat" is an alderman and thus privileged by the crown to carry a firearm. We know she has taken advantage of this privilege because she drew a revolver and waved it around at the rest of the council once in a meeting about public transit, apparently to make a point. She was not charged with anything nor forced to step down. Apparently, it's OK for her to be a complete idiot with a fiream since she belongs to the elite Political Class, but I, who can prove I know what I'm doing anywhere and any time, am simply not trustworthy.

 

 

[Don Gwinn]

This is why you can't always just play along and trust in the nice robbers, who clearly are only robbing you because they were abused as children and they need to steal just enough to feed their own hungry kids. It's too bad they were able to bind her; it sounds like she might have lived otherwise. Shouldn't have let them do that but there's no telling whether she had any opening at all at that time.

 

http://www.arizonarepublic.com/ariz...10murder10.html

 

Mesa mom dies saving daughter, friend in robbery

 

By Senta Scarborough and Patricia Biggs

 

The Arizona Republic

 

July 10, 2002 12:00:00

 

A Mesa woman, bound with duct tape, saved the lives of her teenage daughter and friend by facing off against two armed intruders, fatally shooting one before she was slain in her bedroom.

 

 

Wallace heard Kuhne telling the assailants, "Take all my money, take everything."

 

 

"They seemed to agree that they were going to start killing, with me first," Wallace said.