Strict Dicipline in martial arts schools

[The BB of C]

Imagine you start training at a school (some of you may have already been in or are in a school like this) that teaches techniques very strictly. For example, if you do a technique wrong, you are forced to do a lot of push ups or even hit in a diciplinary fashion until you get it right.

What would you think of that school if you were to train there?

If there is someone reading this who has been in a school like that, what did you think?

If there is someone reading this that is in a school like that, what do you think about it?

I've never been to a school like that. But I could imagine it'd be a very traditional style school and would probably produce good, strong, and tough martial artists. That is my opinion.

[cross]

This type of training would probably produce people very skilled within the art they practice, but how many people in this day and age would put up with such training?

[DisgruntledGirl]

Sorry to say but I'd think that that school would not last very long, would probably only be able to be a part-time thing for the teacher... though the students that stuck it out (if there were any) would probably be more skilled than those at your average school.

While that level of discipline and skill might be expected once you get a few belts up there, that kind of ability cannot be expected from a "beginner"... especially an "older" beginner.

Some are just not athletically inclined and need the time to build up to that kind of skill.

Since I assume you to be fairly "fit"... lets paint a picture from another persons perspective... I know that I still (only bin doing it for about 6 months though) often "understand" the technique that I am supposed to be doing... but physically just have a difficult time pulling it off, especially after I am already tired and will often end up "fixing" it after the fact. I am much better than when i started though and expect to get better still, but being hit/forced to do pushups everytime I got something wrong in the first few weeks/months... I would immagine would have not necessarily "scared" me away, so much as just simply forced me out of it simply to due to lack of endurance... and cross is right, many people just will not put up with it and few students=little income=no school.

While it is not good to "water down" things to the point of being ineffective, there has to be a realisation that some just cannot do things as well as others or as quickly and shouldnt necessarily be punished for that (other than just not being allowed to move up in rank)... at least not untill they get pretty high up there which is part of the reason for the belts in the first place, to guage how much should be expected from students... Those that started out so weak might end up being the best students in the long run if you give them that time to actually get to the point of being "good"... or maybe I read the initial post wrong to begin with... maybe you only meant the higher ups anyway?

[gzk]

I think DisgruntledGirl is on the right track. While I don't think instructors need to let standards slide, and say that a technique is being performed correctly when it clearly is not, I do think that it needs to be realised that even techniques taught at beginner level will continually improve and so a teacher should not expect a black belt standard front kick from a white belt even though that technique is taught at white belt (in most styles, I'm assuming).

Another thing to be considered is that associating strength exercises with punishment is likely to create an aversion to those exercises which does the student no help at all, psychologically or physically, in the long term. In the short term, punishment does not help a student to improve their technique. It is only (arguably) useful for capable students who are slacking off or misbehaving, not for students who cannot yet perform the technique.

The BB of C says that such a school sounds "traditional", and I would agree in that it would be suited to a very different socio-economic situation to ours. Decades and centuries ago, a student would be more or less compelled to receive martial arts instruction (at no extra cost to themselves) and so their only options would be to perfect the technique or get punished. Such an arrangement would likely produce very skilled martial artists, but I would wonder about their psychological stability and self-motivation. Would they keep their training up long term, or cast it aside, having grown to loathe it?

Now, the arrangements are far different: The student voluntarily pays for training (or has it paid for them) and so has another option; to quit. And unfortunately, the sort of person who would need martial arts training the most - the unfit, the un-confident, the un-coordinated, the timid, the small and feeble - would be likely to quit or not even bother with training at such a school, today. I think that martial arts schools today have a duty to start training students from where they are when they start training (one of our head instructor's most common sayings). There is no point punishing a student for failing to kick head-high when they physically cannot. That is an objective, yes, and you help to improve the student to the point where they are capable.

Sorry if I rambled a bit there, but I think you get what I mean..

[bushido_man96]

I think that striving for good technique is a great thing, and should be a focal point in schools. However, dishing out push-ups for performing a technique incorrectly is not on the right track. Everyone is different, and everyone is going to have different learning curves. Expecting a white belt to perform a move like a high rank, and then giving them push-ups for not doing so, is not the right way to do things, in my opinion.

As far as being struck in a "corrective" manner for not performing a technique correctly...that is a very bad way of doing things. If I was getting struck for performing a technique wrong, I would be like to strike back, regardless of rank.

I feel that I come from a technically sound school. When we go to testings and tournaments, I can see the difference between the way our students perform against others from schools in our organization. It gives you a sense of pride, and it challenges me to continue to improve. And we do it without assigning push-ups or anything like that all that often.

[cross]

I agree with what bushido_man96 is saying. Its much more important to provide positive feedback to your students. If you always negatively re-inforce the mistakes people make they will continue to make them or have reduced performace due to fear of doing something wrong.

[bushido_man96]

I agree with what bushido_man96 is saying. Its much more important to provide positive feedback to your students. If you always negatively re-inforce the mistakes people make they will continue to make them or have reduced performace due to fear of doing something wrong.

Yeah, that is why the rank system is in place. You work with them on their technique, and when it is ready, you move them along.

[ps1]

I've been in a school like that before. It's how my kung fu school was. You'd do your push-ups or leg raises or whatever else... and then Master McGinnis would show you what you did wrong and have you practice it again.

Later, after earning my black sash and having taken some college psych courses, I privately pointed out that the push-ups have nothing to do with the learning of the techniques. All that should really be necessary is to explain what was done wrong and to have the student fix it. *You see... i did this because I was young and thought I knew something. Like most young people, I was wrong.*

Master McGinnis chuckled a little and pointed out that the push-ups were not a punishment. In fact, they had nothing to do with the technique. It was just a good way of adding extra conditioning. In a small way it helps to re-enforce what your mistake was also. This method is used in basic training as well. When the privates (new-soldiers) make mistakes the drill sergeants make them do calisthenics of some sort. This is to build up the body and get them combat ready. The same goes for the very traditional martial arts schools. The instructor usually knows very well that push-ups will not improve the messed up double round house or whatever technique. It's to help build the body. As the body improves, the students mind will follow. It builds intestinal fortitude. That is something that can not be taught.

To answer your question, I would train at that school again in a heartbeat. It built me into a strong person. I handled basic training with no problems, was a good soldier and have always been mentally tough. Come to think of it, I'll have to thank Master McGinnis for his part in that the next time I see him.

[mantis.style]

The initial assumption is wrong. If the school is good, the training is going to be hard anyway. You don't do one technique and be judged on that, you do 100 and then do 100 more. There simply isn't time to perform punishment.

Then there's the fact that at some stage, sparring, even light contact will take place, if your technique isn't up to scratch, you will get hit. Sparring is part of training and it is your job to not get hit. It is my job to teach you how to not get hit. If you come to me for training and you can't see that what it is I am doing is for your benefit, then perhaps you shouldn't be here in the first place.

Whether or not the school would last long is again based on your preconceptions of what the school is trying to do. If all you want to do is make money then fine, pamper to the wants of the masses. If you want to teach and train people to their full capacity, then it is your job to work them as hard as you can and that means doing whatever it takes to push them.

There is one additional thing though. If you are serious about your training, you can never do too many push-ups. Part of my out of school training is a hell of a lot of push ups. In a class, it isn't the push ups that is the punishment, it is the time out from doing what everyone else is doing. In other words, you don't learn. At the same time though, a push up (or 50) will make you stronger and in 90% of the time, it is because you are not strong enough in the right places that lets technique down.

[DisgruntledGirl]

It's weird 'cus I agree with you very much, but yet dissagree with you all at the same time

The initial assumption is wrong. If the school is good, the training is going to be hard anyway.

Agreed! But "hard" being subject to the type of student. You can't dish out the same kind of "hard" to the 48 year old grandmother who is trying to get some excercise and also self-defence in an interesting way as you can a 15 year old high school athelete. Heck you cant even dish out the same stuff you would to a 25 year old "unfit" person as you can to a young athelete.

Any good sensei will try to determine goals as early on as he can, and gear the lessons for that student if possible but still get in *everything* that is absolutely required for each level, some can just be pushed harder at each level (though I realise in large schools that is not possible). The sensei should push the student farther than they *think* they can go, sure... but not furthur than they actually *can* go... at least not early on. Being *able* to do mass quantities of something that someon else absolutely cannot do early on does not make you more "worthy" of doing the art... though may make you advance quicker due to the possibility of more focus being able to be put on the technique as opposed to your own fatigue.

Its funny cus I have actually told my Sensei that I think he goes *way* easier on me than any of this other students... even his newer, more inexperienced ones. He is quite often asking me if I am "OK" due to my heavy panting or a few general "ouch"es coming from my direction. He claims that he doesnt think he really does, but I think with my multitued of rather minor health problems I think he cant help but be timid about pushing me (though trust me.. he *does* still push me, just not as hard as some)... though I *always* answer with a "yes, I am fine"... 'cept for one time where I just kinda didnt answer him at all 'cus I didnt want to actually admit to needing to stop... so I just continued as best I could, and hoped that he'd accept it... and he did... but asked me after class "what the heck happened to you today?!?!?"

You don't do one technique and be judged on that, you do 100 and then do 100 more. There simply isn't time to perform punishment.

Exactly. while you need the strength training excersises for sure, dishing them out as a punishment for "bad technique" is rather pointless. Have the student spend more time on the technique *not* punishment for bad technique (unless they are truely just misbehaving/lazy)

Then there's the fact that at some stage, sparring, even light contact will take place, if your technique isn't up to scratch, you will get hit.

agreed again... dont even have any caveates for ya on this one

Whether or not the school would last long is again based on your preconceptions of what the school is trying to do. If all you want to do is make money then fine, pamper to the wants of the masses. If you want to teach and train people to their full capacity, then it is your job to work them as hard as you can and that means doing whatever it takes to push them.

I'd say that this one I mostely dissagree with... but still not completely. While I see what you are saying, it just seems as though you almost want to deny the unfit training due to them simply being unfit, because your average unfit person who is just starting out will just not be able to make it through the hundreds of punishments that will need to be dished out due to "bad technique" at first... most students will have bad technique at first and while the athelete might be able to make it through the "punishment"... the unfit, the person who probably needs the training the most will not and will quit... and sorry to tell ya... but most MA teachers that do it full time do like being able to pay rent/mortgage electricity and buy food ans such and if you can ONLY keep your strong athelets coming... you probably will have to close the school doors cus there arent enough pure atheletes that start at white belt... so then even the athelets wont get the training.

There is one additional thing though. If you are serious about your training, you can never do too many push-ups.

Meh... while I actually agree to this... I'm gonna dissagree just out of spite because I hate pushups and have a hard time doing them

Hmmmm I sure did get long winded didnt i?