Shaolin Posted August 18, 2002 Posted August 18, 2002 HarvesterofSorrow: Wondering where you study and under whom? Wing Chun is at least as 'involved' with long range as is TKD! If you take into consideration the number of foot/leg tools and kicks there are in Wing Chun and all the permeations possible of their use in combat and Sticking Legs training then I'd say you have as much leg learning to do in Wing Chun as in TKD. What a shocker to the unititiated! If the long range or leg training is not present in your version of WC then you should look elsewhere. TKD and Wing Chun's leg work do not complement each other and in fact contradict each other in application. Wing Chun uses all of its leg tools to complement and aid in the application of the finishing tools it has. So in essence Wing Chun uses the legs to gain control and stick to the opponent's legs in order to apply the hands or bridge with the legs in order to take out the opponent as quickly as possible. TKD does not fit in very well with the WC formula and was never intended to. The same goes for a myriad of other systems often suggested as a 'good mix' with Wing Chun. Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace: Moy Yat Sifu
John G Posted August 18, 2002 Posted August 18, 2002 TKD and Wing Chun's leg work do not complement each other and in fact contradict each other in application. Shaolin, It's the contradiction in applications that I need to learn about and be aware of, that's why I study WC and TKD. All to often we fall into the trap of thinking that our martial art is the be all and end all and end up on our butt when someone throws something at us that we weren't prepared for. There are occasions where I would use applications and theory from WC or TKD to catch my opponents off guard from both disciplines. In my mind both systems compliment each other when put together. My Sifu (WC instructor) enjoys the challenge of TKD techniques being applied against him and my Sa-hyon (TKD master) has recently started to introduce a lot of WC theory into the TKD classes (I think he may have studied some form of Chinese martial art before). Both these gentleman don't mind using me as the guinea pig when it comes to demonstrating a particular counter measure technique (Ouch). And both have no problems with me cross training as long as I don't try to convert students to join the other side. Shaolin, I would like to know what form of WC do you study, as it indeed sounds interesting and dynamic. As you would probably appreciate the term Wing Chun (and Taekwon-Do for that matter) is somewhat generic these days, if you could please tell me/us a little bit more about your club (history, whereabouts etc.) it would be appreciated. Do you know if there are any in Western Australia / Australia? John G Jarrett III Dan, ITF Taekwon-Do
Shaolin Posted August 18, 2002 Posted August 18, 2002 Shaolin, It's the contradiction in applications that I need to learn about and be aware of, that's why I study WC and TKD. All to often we fall into the trap of thinking that our martial art is the be all and end all and end up on our butt when someone throws something at us that we weren't prepared for. There are occasions where I would use applications and theory from WC or TKD to catch my opponents off guard from both disciplines. In my mind both systems compliment each other when put together. My Sifu (WC instructor) enjoys the challenge of TKD techniques being applied against him and my Sa-hyon (TKD master) has recently started to introduce a lot of WC theory into the TKD classes (I think he may have studied some form of Chinese martial art before). Shaolin, I would like to know what form of WC do you study, as it indeed sounds interesting and dynamic. As you would probably appreciate the term Wing Chun (and Taekwon-Do for that matter) is somewhat generic these days, if you could please tell me/us a little bit more about your club (history, whereabouts etc.) it would be appreciated. Do you know if there are any in Western Australia / Australia? Hi John, I studied under the late Grand Master Moy Yat with his clan during the 90s in the NYC school in Chinatown. Sifu Moy Yat prided himself on passing along the system as it was passed on to him from Si Gung Yip Man. I am not aware of any segments of the family down under but I am not 100% sure. Wing Chun is a complete system. It was carefully designed to allow all parts to fit together to form a single whole that is Wing Chun. Each movement facilitates the next and this applies to how the system uses the legs and kicks and sticking legs - toward the single objective of taking out the opponent in the shortest possible time using the smallest possible movement and the least possible energy - that is the essence of Wing Chun. As Wing Chun followers, if we find, hear of, or are shown a shorter, more direct movement/method we do not say that we will add this to Wing Chun we say that, that is Wing Chun because that's what Wing Chun stands for. Wing Chun has very specific requirements in combat. Certain movements simply do not fit into the system. The reason they don't fit into the system is because more is not better - if it doesn't make the job easier, faster, shorter, more direct, etc, then there is simply no reason to add it and lots of reasons not to. Now, can you think of a movement, technique or concept from TKD that does a particular job more directly, with less energy or more efficiently than Wing Chun? If you do then by all means elaborate. Honestly, I cannot think of two more dissimilar systems. TKD and Wing Chun in their most common form have almost nothing in common.Wing Chun always uses the simplest most direct attack/defense possible, while controlling the opponent. This is in fact what Wing Chun seeks to be - the most direct way to nullify an attack in terms of energy, distance and angle - this is what the founders of the system sought to create. The Wing Chun fighter shoots in, takes control and does not disengage or stop until the threat is ended. If you want to discuss via email etc let me know. Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace: Moy Yat Sifu
inyctrotter Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 Well said Shaolin. How would Wing Chun work in street fight against TKD?
Shaolin Posted August 19, 2002 Posted August 19, 2002 Well said Shaolin. How would Wing Chun work in street fight against TKD? Pretty much the same way it works most of the time. The distance problem for the TKDist is very hard to manage against someone who wants to close. Here is a clip of a fight between a Muay Thai guy and a TKD guy. One can see the difficulty of maintaining a long distance here. Long range kicking can only exist at ever so fleeting a distance, just a few inches too close and certain kicks can be very hard to deliver, as is depicted here. Not to say this is always going to be the outcome in this type of a matchup as this TKD guy has no hands, but this clip does show the distance problem clearly. http://www.kickboxing.com.mx/video/mastercup.mpeg Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace: Moy Yat Sifu
TKDMASTER Posted January 30, 2003 Posted January 30, 2003 Shaolin I saw that video and it is a very bad example. Ive watched multiple times in kickboxing where the tkd guy worked over the mt dude. tkd is avery good art 4 wc but as allways in every art you need to incorporate grappling!!!!To be a complete fighter.
EnergyBoxer Posted January 30, 2003 Posted January 30, 2003 I study Kai Sai Wing Chun, along with various styles that stess grappling, as well as dynamic kicking , it's always a good idea to expand your abilities, but i agree that one must learn carefully. Mixing techs from other sytems can some time prove unreliable. My advice is to try something that resembles your current art of Kung Fu. It has been my experience that a "Teacher " will not teach, "just kicks", and he/she might not like the idea of mixing techs. Therefore your now having to learn the whole forms of TKD or whatever. I don't want to use the word "confusing" but that's what it was, i wanted, or rather my muscle memory had me doing my Wing Chun, my stance, my footwork , everything was now being questioned. All I can say is if TKD is what you want to incorperate into your system then learn from someone who has done it succesfully (WC+TKD). But for the record, Northern and Southern Styles of Kung Fu both teach powerfull kicks that WC does not, also because the styles are so closely related, the other techs you will learn will suit your current style. Kai Sai Wing Chun Kung Fu, JKD, Brazilian/Dan Zan Ryu Jujitsu, Chinese Hawiian Kempo, Pressure Point/Nerve/Cavity striking, and Tai Chi.
Ashura Posted February 4, 2003 Posted February 4, 2003 You all need to realize the real meaning of SHOTO! Yup
magikchiongson Posted February 5, 2003 Posted February 5, 2003 I can tell you right now, that ya'll are too caught up in distance. This is a mistake, if you catch yourself measuring distance what exactly are you measuring? If you are in danger of being hit by a kick or a punch? Is there a distance where you don't consider yourself at risk? I own you.
RIVER DRAGON Posted February 7, 2003 Posted February 7, 2003 well i am a practitioner of a style of jujitsu and i am very pleased with what i have been taught. but if i had the opportunity to take wing chun, i would and i think that jujitsu and wing chun would go well together if needed. but as far as tkd i would definatly use the kicks they are very powerful and practical....but dont get into the flashy stuff if will get you hurt.
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