Your opinion on MMA these days?

[bushido_man96]

MMA is about fighting.

I am a better fighter now that when I did only karate.

Of these two points.... I have no doubt. But, point number one, Is being a better fighter your ultimate goal, or is living a better life. Getting into a fight as an adult is a slim chance at best, and if you have gotten into a fight as an adult, you were probably partialy at fault..... I know I was. The ultimate goal of karate is to help you seek perfection of character.

Perfection of character is, I feel, a direct result of the Funakoshi's transitioning the art of Karate to be taught in the public schools of Japan. I honestly don't believe that it held that much weight in its inception. Perfection of character does not equate, in my mind, to challenging opponents of rival schools, and creating a fighthing style used to train troops for war (which is how the martial arts came about).

Character can be perfected by doing many different activities; karate is just one of them. Oragami could be another; painting could be another; other athletic training, such as football, soccer, and MMA, could be others as well.

[Sensei Rick]

okay, so then, what would you say is the ultimate goal of karate then bushido?

[baronbvp]

Yes, but I was tired of doing kata. I learn to fight better by sparring. I like karate, don't get me wrong. However, I am more of a natural kickboxer in style than a karateka. I like Muay Thai best of everything I've tried.

Great points, though. Now I'm an "old guy" who doesn't fight.

[bushido_man96]

okay, so then, what would you say is the ultimate goal of karate then bushido?

Karate is, above all, a fighting style. When you get down to it, you should be learning how to defend yourself with any martial art that you study. Personal betterment is a good thing, in my opinion. However, I don't think that it is the centerpiece for learning any martial art. Personal betterment and perfection of character is the role of parents in society; it should not fall on the martial arts instructors of the world.

I do believe that it is the job of the instructor to make sure that what he teaches doesn't get used to oppress others. I think responsibility is important when teaching anything, including the Martial Arts.

When the MAs first came into being, they were used for war. Since that time, the importance of the person over the warrior has replaced what many deem to be Karate's centerpiece. Have you noticed that it is in the East where most of these changes have taken place? You don't see this trend with Western fighting styles...they tend to move more towards the sporting aspects, the competitive aspects. However, we still live in a violent world, and being able to defend oneself is still important. And I feel that is what learning a fighting style/art/system is about.

[Sensei Rick]

So, you say that self defense is the goal. How many times do martial artists get into street fights? How many times have u yourself got into a street altercation? How many BB's do you know that can't fight that well? There are many!!

Why train 20, 30, or 40 years for one street fight. The chances of getting into a fight are about 1 in a 1000, and I even think that figure is high. I wouldn't spend 40 years, learning to fly a plane, if i was only going to fly one time, for about 2 minutes (and 2 minutes is a long time, in terms of a street fight). Why would you train 40 years, learning how to fight, only to fight for 2 minutes of your whole life with another person. If you have trained in MA for 40 years, you might be around 58 years old. Why the heck are you putting yourself into a situation where you might get into a fight at 58. As far as self defense, go learn to shoot a gun and get a concealled carry permit. if they don't allow that where you live, move here to arizona. A gun will work better than the best round house kick I can do.

Is your instructor stating that it's okay to use you MA in the street. I have a rainbow of belts in a variety of styles. I have a BB in 2 different styles. Every single style that I have studied or that I am aware of have a dojo kun of some kind that admonishes violent behavior. If you are happhazardly living a life that puts you in violent danger, then you should reconsider your life style.

Now let's look at it from another point still. How long can it take you to become a better fighter than an untrained person. At the outside let's say for arguments sake, you can become better than an untrained person with five years of training, 3 days a week. Well, why continue? Why go to class ever again. You've learned some good self defense, and your chances of an altercation are low, so why do back to class, and pay dues, physical dues and financial dues.

Bushido, you know I respect you. I have told you so in PM's before. I have only privately talked to 3 people in these forums the whole time i've been here. I am not sure how long you have been training, but train long enough, and you will HAVE to come up with a better reason to go to class than self defense. I now think aout my life as a whole and how MA and training in it everyday will improve my quality of life. what type of training I will have to do to improve that quality of life. Self defense and fighting is now the last thing on my mind. Respectfully..... me, Sensei Rick

[bushido_man96]

Is your instructor stating that it's okay to use you MA in the street.

No, but I don't necessarily take every piece of advise that all of my instructors have given me, either. His viewpoints and my viewpoints on the Martial Arts are not the same. I like to think that I am a good person. However, MA did not make me that way. I am because of the way I was raised and taught. The reason that there is only about a 5% chance that any one of us will ever get into a fight in our lives is because of this: we are raised so. It isn't because 95% of the population are Martial Artists. The fact of the matter is that most people know better.

Why train all that time for a fight that I may never get into? Because when or if it does happen, I want to survive. To me, the investment is worth it. I work in a Detention Facility, and have met the people who are coniving; the people that you can't trust; the people you don't want to turn your back on. I have met part of the 5%. There is a reason why I am doing my job, and they are not, and it isn't because of the Martial Arts.

I am not saying that I have not learned anything else from my Martial Art experiences; far from it. However, I just feel that learning how to defend oneself (the Martial part of the arts) is important. I am also not saying that I would not want to learn Martial Arts from you, Rick (I also respect you, very much). I am just stating what my feelings on the ideas behind the Martial Arts are, from my viewpoint.

[baronbvp]

I train to fight not because I want or expect to get into a street fight. I actually like to fight, in a way, just as some like to play tennis. I'm talking about sparring, not street fighting. I don't fight. I don't seek it and I try to avoid it. At 45, it's not that hard to do. But I also want to be good at it should it ever become unavoidable. So I train to fight - or used to. My MA training, while encompassing many years off and on, is not nearly as extensive as yours sounds to be.

Sensei Rick, your analogy of learning to fly is a good one. Let me reply with this: I spent almost three years learning to fly jets for the Navy, then most of 20 more flying them off aircraft carriers and teaching others to do so. I learned a lot more about flying by actually flying than by imagining flying, simulating flying, reading about flying, or going through the motions of flying with a partner. These are all important and one will not become as good a pilot without them. But there is no substitute for flying practice, to get better at flying. That's why the Blue Angels practice so much. When one flies in combat, the time spent flying beforehand makes it as natural and instinctive as can be.

I am not a fan of kata. With my limited time for training, I would rather practice fighting and train in various aspects of that. Some love kata, even live for it. Some do MA purely for the self-actualization, and I honor that. But to me, if you are a black belt who can't fight, you don't deserve to wear black. Of course, I don't have a black belt so my view is perhaps biased.

[mantis.style]

I don't understand how people can so easily put the "art" part so much higher than the "martial" part, especially considering the mistranslation that get's you the word "art" in the English term in the first place.

You can take the "art" part out of it and you are still left with the pure fighting style but if you take the fighting out it, what are you left with?

t is a clear dilemma and one that doesn't have an easy answer, especially seeing the questions regarding the validity of martial arts and the variaty of reasons for the modern student to learn them.

In the modern world though, what I would like to see is a differentiation between the jutsu and the do. What I have a small problem with, is that too many do not know the difference. As said, karate is first and foremost supposed to be a fighting art; karate-jutsu. The thing is, how many actually teach it as thus? At the same time, if it is not taught as such, should they still be claiming and promoting the "fighting" aspect as much as they do?

I fully understand the ideal of karate-do but I can't help but think that while it makes sense n the context of the creator of it; someone who was at the time of the creation a very competent fighter and let's be honest, a bit of a thug, I'm not sure if the ideal works if you are learning from scratch.

I mean, isn't the fundemental idea a bit of paradox in the first place?

Learn to do an essentially bad thing, to learn to be good?

[bushido_man96]

Very good post, mantis.style. Great thoughts, and I agree with most of them.

[username8517]

The inherent purpose of martial arts should be fighting. Granted there are off-shoots that have sprung up more geared towards other aspects of lifestyle (XMA for example), but martial arts were refined as a system of moves to be used in a fighting situation.

Bushido, while a positive goal to aim for in anything you do, was not the reasoning behind the creation of karate. Rather it was a piece of an already existing culture that was applied to it. French Savate was created by the social elite as a way to protect themselves from the underbelly of their society, rather than a way to perfect their their social and economic power over the vagrants and beggers. This is the essence of martial arts--fighting and protection.

Furthermore, the reason nearly all training halls don't encourage the moves and techniques to be demonstrated outside the training hall is not out of wanting to force the students to adhere to a strict moral and ethic code, but rather many of the techniques can have serious and highly effective end results. This is to keep the training of unrefined skills kept in the dojo and out of the hands of children on a playground showing off (thereby creating unneccesary injuries in an unjustifiable manner).

Personally, I take martial arts to know how to better prepare myself in the off chance that something should happen. I am not saying that I live in a bad neighborhood or live a dangerous lifestyle. However, as I cannot see the future. I do not know what lies in wait for me ten years from now or even ten minutes from now.

I would rather train to protect myself in the event of being attacked than doing something else. And yes, I may never need to use my skills. But that is certainly no guarantee.

Taking the anology of flying. Let's go ahead and say you did spend years learning to fly, but never really did. Then one day you're on a plane taking a cross country flight and the pilot has a heart attack. Granted you've never actually flown a plane before, but with your years of training, you would at least have a basic understanding of what you were encountering, what kind of problems you can expect, what results certain moves might have, and how to resolve the situation. Even if you fail at saving the plane, how is that any worse than never trying?

For an anology of my own, I could easily swap out my time training and teaching for other activities such as basketball. But how much good will my skills shooting an outside jumpshot help me if I'm minding my own business one day on the court and someone decides to jump me because he thought I disrespected him in some way?

The point is, yes, not everyone may train to learn how to defend themselves. Which is why as you put it, there are a lot of BB who don't know how to fight. But do you blame the school, the student, or the style for that? Is it the schools fault for teaching ineffective junk to students desperately wanting to learn? Is it the students fault if they only want the exercise aspect of it? Or is the style's fault for being trying to be everything to everyone and becoming watered down and never applying real resistence in their training?

Short answer is that none of these are the answer. Each of us have our own training methods and goals. Granted there are those of us who train with the end goal of improving their lives and bodies. But there are those of us that train to fight--even if we never have to.