Your opinion on MMA these days?

[bushido_man96]

I would have to agree with tallgeese on this one. MMA fighters are sharp, and fast. They also wear gloves that are a touch thicker, so they won't do quite as much damage as the cloth pads that the Shotokai competitors were wearing.

I practice what I consider to be a hard style, and we do all the hard blocks in every class. But when we spar, opportunities to use those blocks aren't that frequent. They work well against circular kicks and hook punches, but otherwise the zoned blocking that redirects more than damages gets used more.

You could view video clips of the Olympic TKDers and their kicks, and think that they could dominate in MMA as well, but it just doesn't directly translate. Those guys, and those in the video above, might win some matches, but without the specialized training regimine that serious MMAers go through, they wouldn't get to a very high level of competition.

Take Lyota Machida, for example. He has done a great job of taking Shotokan into the MMA ring, but do you think that he appears to fight like those of the video clip, as far as the speed and quick tagging goes? He has some similarities, for sure, but he has modified his training to fit the MMA mold, and has also supplemented groundfighting to boot. But, if he got into the Shotokai ring that those in the video were fighing in, he might not do as well as them in that venue, because he hasn't focused his training to it. I think that what your focus is will have a big impact on your sparring.

[bushido_man96]

I would have to agree with tallgeese on this one. MMA fighters are sharp, and fast. They also wear gloves that are a touch thicker, so they won't do quite as much damage as the cloth pads that the Shotokai competitors were wearing.

I practice what I consider to be a hard style, and we do all the hard blocks in every class. But when we spar, opportunities to use those blocks aren't that frequent. They work well against circular kicks and hook punches, but otherwise the zoned blocking that redirects more than damages gets used more.

You could view video clips of the Olympic TKDers and their kicks, and think that they could dominate in MMA as well, but it just doesn't directly translate. Those guys, and those in the video above, might win some matches, but without the specialized training regimine that serious MMAers go through, they wouldn't get to a very high level of competition.

Take Lyota Machida, for example. He has done a great job of taking Shotokan into the MMA ring, but do you think that he appears to fight like those of the video clip, as far as the speed and quick tagging goes? He has some similarities, for sure, but he has modified his training to fit the MMA mold, and has also supplemented groundfighting to boot. But, if he got into the Shotokai ring that those in the video were fighing in, he might not do as well as them in that venue, because he hasn't focused his training to it. I think that what your focus is will have a big impact on your sparring.

[ShoriKid]

MMA fighters, those of top caliber, are fast, precise and powerful. What makes them look less so is the level of competition that they are facing and the formating of the competition they are in. Marcus Davis, Spencer Fisher, BJ Penn, Mike Swick, Anderson Silva, Rich Franklin, Lyoto Machida, Rashad Evins are all clean, crisp and accurate strikers with plenty of power. I pick lighter weight fighters because they don't have as much raw horsepower as a heavy weight will(though light heavies and middle weights aren't slackers in the raw strength department).

If your looking at the Shotokai men and the competition from the video, I'm seeing moderate contact, on a single point format with light protective gear not meant to prevent injury. The fighters know that all they have to do is land one shot to score and win the fight. They are not throughing series of combinations and don't have to concern themselves with defending against such. That is why the tranditional blokcing methods work for them here(more on 'traditional blocking' below). If they were facing a series of blows coming, at full force and in rapid succession, they would have to change their posture, defensive and movement styles. What they are doing, how they are standing, how they are attacking and defending would not work in a full contact, continous environment outside of a lucky shot. They, as bushido_man pointed out, they train for the kind of competition they are in. What they are doing in the video clip provided would get them killed in an MMA formated event.

I'm not saying these men aren't quick, or precise, but I don't see anything there that is all that impressive when compaired to other high level combat athletes.

Traditional blocking, and we'll stick to "traditional" in the sense of what most people expect from Karate/Kung Fu etc. for example may intercept a lot of strikes at the forearm and seek to redirect the power of the blow instead of stopping it dead. The idea is to then follow up before the attacker has the chance to throw another blow and to maintain contact with the offending limb. When someone is coming at you full bore with the intent to hurt you and is equally, or more skilled, then things get more difficult. Especially when that person is used to getting hit hard. They are harder to put down because the fighter's instinct when hit is to either grab on and pull you down to work the ground or to keep coming forward hitting you hard to buy them time. "Zone" defenses as tallgeese and bushido_man are calling them are a better strategic choice when someone is coming at you with mutlitple attacks, from multiple angles at a high rate of speed and with serious power. If you try to block at the forearm and attack, your very likely going to eat a shot. If you adhear to the limb, you end up in the clinch worrying about elbows, knees and throws.

Of course, this all assumes you don't know how much "zone" defense is in traditional blocking/systems. Choki Motobu used a forearm shield/cover for defense in his book on Okinawan Kenpo. We call it answering the phone in our dojo. Boxers and MMA types just call it covering up vs. a hook. The forearm shell of that boxers and MMA fighters use is not radically different than the mid point of a traditional high block. The point where the forearm has dropped and the blocking hand is rising to cover and cross the chambering hand is a good, solid defense. Where I was told, in a traditional Okinawain style, that this is where you go if you don't have time to complete the head block for defense. Same with the chest level block. The cross is your cover when you don't have time to complete the block. And against someone throwing multiple shots fast and hard, your going to be hard pressed for time.

You were impressed that some of the men were knocked out through an inch of padded glove. Having watched the video, I'm not that impressed. Not meaning that to sound insulting, but the vast majority of the knockout hits land on or just past the point of the chin. The "sweet spot" in boxing for a knockout. I caught a training partner 2 nights ago in the same spot, light/moderate contact in the same spot with a training glove that has multiple density foam to make it as protective as a 16oz glove. He would have received either a standing 8 or a TKO from that shot. After he recovered enough to continue, by his accounts, he caught me with a straight right in the same spot that did the same to me. Small gloves and punches to the jaw line tend to produce knockouts, simple as that.

While I greatly appreciate the work and technique that goes into an Ippon match, and can watch and enjoy it at high levels, I don't consider what they do anymore artful or demanding of skill than an equivellently skilled MMA bout.

[baronbvp]

BB of C, then why do you suppose these fighters don't enter the octagon? The money is certainly there now. Kumite was the original full-contact sport; it has now evolved through trial and error and Royce Gracie to modern MMA. The beauty of the sport is that any style is allowed within the rules of UFC (no biting, etc). I've seen some Muay Thai guys that would potentially knock out the guys in your video with feet that come out of nowhere, with speed, power, and intent to hurt. But they can't fight on the ground. And a BJJ champ with no striking ability won't get close enough to win.

That's why the first M in MMA is "mixed."

[The BB of C]

I don't know why they don't.

All I can say to that is that I have seen them enter in competitions with the same (or similar) rule set and do well as well as not so well.

[Boris]

in my opinion mma is well but so dirty without any philosophy of life and values...it is a cheap art...sorry if i insulted someone...i do not know why these fighters feel they are super human beings..there is no one who will stronger than ballet or knife.

[tallgeese]

Actually, it's that lack of baggage in MMA that appeals to alot of people. It's solely about fighting.

[baronbvp]

Correct.

Remember why MMA was started: bring your style, no holds barred, and let's see who wins.

Effective fighting wins. They had to modify early UFC rules for safety, and they added weight classes, but essentially it spawned a hybrid fighting form of Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (or similar forms) that is now arguably its own martial art. You now have an effective fighting style for the street or for fighting an opponent with whom you have no experience, or of whom you have no prior knowledge.

It isn't perfect; no one wants to get stuck grappling during a street fight while opponents come or odds change. And granted, the style derived from competition under the rules of the octagon does not mimic the street or account for fighting multiple opponents or fighting with other people on your side, or with weapons. But most modern fighting advocates would agree, I think, that a truly effective universally applicable real-world fighting style combines forms of striking, clinching, throwing, and grappling.

The tats and the trash talk are just a cultural part of the lifestyle and the entertainment side of the show.

[tallgeese]

All true.

Bushido man brings up another good point about specificity of training. Guys doing the above sort of sparring will get really good at it, maybe not so good at MMA style comps. MMA guys probably wouldn't do well in the comps we're all looking at in the link. It goes back to specifically training for an environment.

When I decided to compete, especially when I did it alot, I'd stop working outside that rule set about 6 weeks out. I'd radically cut back everything else about 8 out. This was a bigger deal back before most of the MMA ruleset was codified and every fight or tourney operated slightly differently.

You can't expect anyone to simply jump to a different arena and compete at as high a level as they could prior to spending time under those specific guidelines. Some will make smoother transitions based on how closely their previous venues mimic their new one. But there are enough differences that this would take time.

[sensei8]

I enjoy one great mma fight as another, I'm looking forward to UFC 100, but, after awhile, imho, all of the mma fights start blending in and looking just like the other fights, with an occasional wow-factor here and there.

Now, take away all of the rules...yahoo...now we're talking! I'm sick that way at times, heheheheheheehehee!

This is my opinion on MMA these days!