TaiChi Combat

[Kajukenbopr]

Mantis isn't what I would call a internal style. There are training methods that would fall into what the modern "traditional" martial artist would call internal work but it is all still very much physical. Things are still taught in terms of the old classical names and concepts like blood sand palm and iron shirt and, short bridge "shock" power but if you practice the style, you'll see and feel that it is just very specialised and localised muscle training. It is said that in mantis, the shock power comes from the Iron Shirt training and if you ever meet a Mantis Practicioner with a good few years under his belt, the things you will notice is a brick wall back and rediculously solid forearms. Now you could say that the amount of power they can generate from short ranges/bridges is down to "chi" or you can look at the clues. Don't you think it's coincidence that certain "chi" exercises makes your muscles ache the next day?

The thing with chi not being special is me saying that it isn't "magic" but that doesn't mean it still doesn't require a very long time. Tai Chi is practiced slowly because ultimately, it has to follow seven (or is it nine?) very strict rules. If you even slightly out with regards to these rules, then technically, the movement is wrong. In this respect, it is very much like old wikan magic. The process is so long and laborious that you are 99% guarenteed to get one step wrong and hence, the spell fails.

Getting the pure physical motions correct is by itself a very difficult thing to do; especially when you take into account that in all cases these days, you will be learning the motions in it's original taught form, from someone who would naturally apply it slightly differently according to his physical differences from the original and then you have to re-apply your own physical differences to the original form AND his version of it in practice.

In tai chi, this is made worse by the variations in applications of the original form and the differences between actual stressed practiced and slow two man drills.

The easiest way is to learn is to simply keep practicing the forms and the movements in application. In this scenario, "chi" becomes a way of not having to teach or to hide the fact that you don't know as much as you say you do. I mean, hey, in ten years time when you've learnt how to harness your chi, you mediocre forms' application would be highly improved (ignoring the ten extra years that you should've put into forms training as well). Take into consideration; learning to write with your other hand. It's not impossible, nor is it something that you don't know how it's supposed to be done; it just takes practice. Chi seems to have become the cop-out excuse for not having to practice properly.

I didn't mention the mental aspect because I think too much is placed on that as well. In the Chinese styles there is much more emphasis on being just used to doing something. You get used to punching solid bags to the point that walls are more or less punchable. You get used to getting hit in the ribs. You get used to bashing forearms against each other. It isn't mental in that you have to prepare yourself; it's mental in that it becomes normal like pretty much everything else you have to learn. Writing and typing isn't "normal" but use and practice makes it instintive.

seems we have different internal exercises, as mine do not have repetitive hitting to train body parts, forearms or shins, that training I have it on my external side of my martial arts.

the shins have to be hardened like fists, the forearms can be trained too, but you can also use the forearms in a soft parrying way, so as to avoid it hurting instead of hardening them like knuckles.

Also, in my internal exercises, a lot of emphasis is put on the mental side of them, as I am constantly reminded to scan my body for stress of any kind, as well as being conscious of everything around me.

If im not mistaken, on tai chi forms there are only about 3 rules regarding balance, relaxation, muscle-skeletal alignment, to be called properly effective.

i wonder how the difference in exercises is called or determined- the training of the body to withstand blows, and the training of the internal energy, with no hitting to the body to train body parts...

[mantis.style]

The other thing is we talk about things in terms of the "energy" that is felt during the movements. In Chinese this i called "lik" and in practice it is where you feel tension in your muscles. To clarify, the repetive hitting isn't strictly part of the thing that is considered "chi" training but it is to do with energies of hitting. This is probably down to my mantis being newer in inception than Tai Chi and hence, it has already made a move to removing the "mystical" elements while still maintaining some of the old ways. However, with that said, breathing is a fundemental part of some of the iron shirt training and don't forget that in Chinese "chi" does mean breathe.

Going back to the energies of hitting and moving. The best example would be some of the grinding exercises. This is donw in pairs often in mirror sequences. What this does is set up a situation between you and your partner where you have resistance applied to your form which you react to and against. If you slow this down to purely doing the movement with no over -reaction, you can learn which muscles you need and which muscles you don't. It doesn't take long for the obvious rhythm of the muscle tension that goes on to make itself known. Once you've got this, you can actually remove the partner and even the excercise yourself and work purely on that rhythm of muscle tension. Outwardly, it looks like you're having a minor spasm if you don't apply the tensions to the erlated form but you end up working the same muscles.

I apologise for the muddle in trying to describe this sort of thing. I am having to translate into English things that don't have direct and correct translations and things that are better demonstrated than explained. I hope I've done it well enough.

[Kajukenbopr]

i see.Interesting training...

My internal training is not of TaiChi, it is from Zhan Zhuang( internal exercises of Yiquan or DAChenquan). Emphasis is not put on movement, but on stillness which brings forth power. The training however does not include abstract teachings about Chi, but a scientific look on how the body works, and how this "power" comes forth.

This type of training then focuses on power issuing exercises and finally basic movements that you can arrange however u want.

from here on to introduction to fighting, push hands, etc until free fighting and forms.

[RealWingChunKuen]

i see.Interesting training...

My internal training is not of TaiChi, it is from Zhan Zhuang( internal exercises of Yiquan or DAChenquan). Emphasis is not put on movement, but on stillness which brings forth power. The training however does not include abstract teachings about Chi, but a scientific look on how the body works, and how this "power" comes forth.

This type of training then focuses on power issuing exercises and finally basic movements that you can arrange however u want.

from here on to introduction to fighting, push hands, etc until free fighting and forms.

I believe that your Tai Chi training emphasises soft chi kung where as Mantis.style's training emphasises the hard chi kung.

The softness in Tai Chi emphasises the flow of energy through the

tandien(s) and the cultivation of chi. This is only truly understood by one who trains it and for a long time. There is no magic about it, there are secrets, but definitely no magic. I have never come across any authentic kung fu teacher that has described this aspect of kung fu as magic. I am afraid that it is all about patience, diligence and plain old Hard Work (that is, kung fu).

There are "softer" schools of Southern Mantis as well, but I suspect that Mantis.Style does not practice in one of those. In harder schools of chinese kung fu it is more difficult to appreciate the subltleness of chi cultivation as regards to arts such as Tai Chi Chuan, whose basis and ultimate aim is to use this force for combat and yes it does take 10 years to make effective, that is just its nature. To achieve a body that possesses the "silky softness" necessary for tai chi combat takes a long time.

Note: I believe the core training in southern mantis emphasises tendon training on equal basis, if not more, than external muscle training.

[mantis.style]

To us, they're the same thing.

You can't practice Iron Shirt, without practicing shock power. You can't train muscles without at the same time training "tendon" strength - inverted commas because it is old school chinese theory. At the same time because of how the things work, it also means you can't train tendon strength without practicing Iron Shirt etc. And the cycle continues.

[Kajukenbopr]

i see.Interesting training...

My internal training is not of TaiChi, it is from Zhan Zhuang( internal exercises of Yiquan or DAChenquan). Emphasis is not put on movement, but on stillness which brings forth power. The training however does not include abstract teachings about Chi, but a scientific look on how the body works, and how this "power" comes forth.

This type of training then focuses on power issuing exercises and finally basic movements that you can arrange however u want.

from here on to introduction to fighting, push hands, etc until free fighting and forms.

I believe that your Tai Chi training emphasises soft chi kung where as Mantis.style's training emphasises the hard chi kung.

The softness in Tai Chi emphasises the flow of energy through the

tandien(s) and the cultivation of chi. This is only truly understood by one who trains it and for a long time. There is no magic about it, there are secrets, but definitely no magic. I have never come across any authentic kung fu teacher that has described this aspect of kung fu as magic. I am afraid that it is all about patience, diligence and plain old Hard Work (that is, kung fu).

There are "softer" schools of Southern Mantis as well, but I suspect that Mantis.Style does not practice in one of those. In harder schools of chinese kung fu it is more difficult to appreciate the subltleness of chi cultivation as regards to arts such as Tai Chi Chuan, whose basis and ultimate aim is to use this force for combat and yes it does take 10 years to make effective, that is just its nature. To achieve a body that possesses the "silky softness" necessary for tai chi combat takes a long time.

Note: I believe the core training in southern mantis emphasises tendon training on equal basis, if not more, than external muscle training.

although i do believe its not easy to learn, I dont think it takes as long as 10 years to make effective. maybe 10 years to "master" or become a teacher