TaiChi Combat

[RealWingChunKuen]

Tai Chi Chuan is a high level style of kung fu, yes kung fu. It is an internal system. It is an extremely effective fighting system when practiced correctly, with a real sifu and for a LONG time.

This system, as well as other high level internal systems such as Hsing-I and Pakua take relatively longer to master because their effectiveness is based on the development and use of Chi and its use for combat.

Just the concept of Chi itself is very difficult for westerners, and none-initiates in general, to understand, let alone its use within a system of martial arts.

This is the reason why Tai Chi is so misunderstood, specially here in the west. Not only is it a valid and effective MA, it surpasses many other martial arts as to its combat effectiveness. The "problem" with Tai Chi is that most people nowadays do not have the time, and many times the patience, to put in the training required.

Of course, the other "problem" with Tai Chi is the fact that it is not easy to find a REAL master who teaches it. Hence, you hear many "sifus" who say that they teach Tai Chi only as health exercises and not martial arts. For me it is like saying I teach Shaolin Five Animals or Wing Chun, only as health exercises and not as martial arts.

[Kajukenbopr]

Tai Chi Chuan is a high level style of kung fu, yes kung fu. It is an internal system. It is an extremely effective fighting system when practiced correctly, with a real sifu and for a LONG time.

This system, as well as other high level internal systems such as Hsing-I and Pakua take relatively longer to master because their effectiveness is based on the development and use of Chi and its use for combat.

Just the concept of Chi itself is very difficult for westerners, and none-initiates in general, to understand, let alone its use within a system of martial arts.

This is the reason why Tai Chi is so misunderstood, specially here in the west. Not only is it a valid and effective MA, it surpasses many other martial arts as to its combat effectiveness. The "problem" with Tai Chi is that most people nowadays do not have the time, and many times the patience, to put in the training required.

Of course, the other "problem" with Tai Chi is the fact that it is not easy to find a REAL master who teaches it. Hence, you hear many "sifus" who say that they teach Tai Chi only as health exercises and not martial arts. For me it is like saying I teach Shaolin Five Animals or Wing Chun, only as health exercises and not as martial arts.

yes, also happens when "converted" into performance competition.

Then you dont even have to pay attention to anything internal as long as it looks good.

However, i think its easy to spot when a practitioner looks at a "tounament competitor"

[mantis.style]

To me, the "you don't under the concept of what chi is" is a cop out excuse. Why do you need to understand what the thing is? If you perform the movements correctly, the movements will be effective, whether or not you under the concept of chi or even if you are told the reason behind what you are doing. I firmly believe that the selling of chi as some kind of mystical force is one of the core reasons why/how many schools of chinese martial arts gets away with not teaching effective martial arts. If you have to spend 10 years to cultivate your chi in order to fight with the schools' basic forms, then that presents a very big question mark to me.

[Kajukenbopr]

To me, the "you don't under the concept of what chi is" is a cop out excuse. Why do you need to understand what the thing is? If you perform the movements correctly, the movements will be effective, whether or not you under the concept of chi or even if you are told the reason behind what you are doing. I firmly believe that the selling of chi as some kind of mystical force is one of the core reasons why/how many schools of chinese martial arts gets away with not teaching effective martial arts. If you have to spend 10 years to cultivate your chi in order to fight with the schools' basic forms, then that presents a very big question mark to me.

Actually, you dont need to understand the "concept of chi"

however, you do need to go through the training-(whether the teacher explains why to do them or not) to develop the techniques; correct body mechanics, mind frame, overall development....

whether you think the techniques are effective or not is not relevant, they are martial arts that when trained for and applied for correctly, do work, or if not they wouldnt have survived more than 100 years. PRACTITIONERS can make it work, or make it not work.

people who like skipping steps are most likely not to succeed with TaiChi or other related arts.

[RealWingChunKuen]

To me, the "you don't under the concept of what chi is" is a cop out excuse.

People who do not understand the concept of Chi and its development, will many times, look for short term results on the same line as with external martial arts.

Why do you need to understand what the thing is?

Because, a basic understanding of the concepts involved will help your mind focus on the correct training and will create a an understanding of the time span required. A higher levels of undetstanding of chi only come when thru practice and time, one actually experiences it.

If you perform the movements correctly, the movements will be effective, whether or not you under the concept of chi or even if you are told the reason behind what you are doing.

This statement holds true - for the most part - regarding external martial arts. With internal martial arts however, and specially at higher levels, the workings of chi need to be understood.

I firmly believe that the selling of chi as some kind of mystical force is one of the core reasons why/how many schools of chinese martial arts gets away with not teaching effective martial arts.

Only because because the people doing the "selling" don't actually know what it is that they are selling, because as in most cases they are not qualified to do so - read, McKwoons.

If you have to spend 10 years to cultivate your chi in order to fight with the schools' basic forms, then that presents a very big question mark to me.

The internal martial arts take longer to master than the external ones. That is their nature. The further one practices these then one develops a better understanding of the concepts involved.

[mantis.style]

Or it could simply be that there is nothing "special" to sell in the first place. You have to remember that originally, "chi" was used as a way to name and describe the effects of doing things in a certain way. I'd say that 60% of those things are about body mechanics and 30% is about muscle dynamics and the remaining 10% is about using specific muscles that aren't normally used.

Put it this way, show me a "chi" demonstration and I can probably show you how/why it works.

[RealWingChunKuen]

Or it could simply be that there is nothing "special" to sell in the first place. You have to remember that originally, "chi" was used as a way to name and describe the effects of doing things in a certain way. I'd say that 60% of those things are about body mechanics and 30% is about muscle dynamics and the remaining 10% is about using specific muscles that aren't normally used.

There are those who would disagree with you on such simplification of Chi. They would tell you that chi is more than just muscle mechanics, that it involves, at least in higher levels of training, pure energy that is directed by the mind to different parts of the body....etc

Put it this way, show me a "chi" demonstration and I can probably show you how/why it works.

That would suggest that you believe you know how chi works. Wether that is true or not is not really relevant to this discussion. However, what I am saying is that people training in the internal arts have should have access to that knowledge, according to their skill level of course.

This will ensure that they know about the time span and other factors that are required. I think that is a logical statement that describes a logical approach to training. The fact is that internal styles take longer to master than the more external styles of kung fu (which take long enough in their own right).

When an instructor tells a new student that he will need to devote a relatively longer time period his training, then it is logical for him to run thru some basic concepts regarding the relevance of chi in the practice of that particular art.

The fact is one of the major aim in the internal martial arts is the development, nurturing and control of chi for fighting and health. There is not getting away from that fact.

[mantis.style]

Actually, health is supposed to be a by-product of practicing in that manner; it is not the reason for it. The original text from which the original "chi" excercises come from and all more or less stretching and isometric excercises.

Anyway, your desciption of "chi" as being pure energy directed by the mind more or less says that we hold differing views on the subject and that chances are we are not going to agree on this.

[Kajukenbopr]

Or it could simply be that there is nothing "special" to sell in the first place. You have to remember that originally, "chi" was used as a way to name and describe the effects of doing things in a certain way. I'd say that 60% of those things are about body mechanics and 30% is about muscle dynamics and the remaining 10% is about using specific muscles that aren't normally used.

Put it this way, show me a "chi" demonstration and I can probably show you how/why it works.

isnt Mantis Style an internal art?

My definition of Chi is pretty close to what you describe here, however, if it wasn't "special", then what stops people from learning this quickly and easily?

As for the definition per percents you gave, you forgot a very VERY important aspect- the mental aspect. Sure you learn how to use muscles you normally don't use, and the muscle dynamics is different, however, the mind plays a crucial part of this. With training, your mind gets more focused, you don't have to strain to find an answer as you use your martial arts, it comes to you.

I don't think Chi is Magic, some people do. However, not everyone understands what Chi is, then they try to tell other people about it, get it wrong again and keep passing it on. Others, understand just a little bit and try to bypass the training so they can achieve power some other way, confusing body mechanics with power. And so on. This is what he referred to as a McKwoon- people that either didnt understand or understood very little trying to teach stuff that is so incomplete it pales in comparison to its original design.

[mantis.style]

Mantis isn't what I would call a internal style. There are training methods that would fall into what the modern "traditional" martial artist would call internal work but it is all still very much physical. Things are still taught in terms of the old classical names and concepts like blood sand palm and iron shirt and, short bridge "shock" power but if you practice the style, you'll see and feel that it is just very specialised and localised muscle training. It is said that in mantis, the shock power comes from the Iron Shirt training and if you ever meet a Mantis Practicioner with a good few years under his belt, the things you will notice is a brick wall back and rediculously solid forearms. Now you could say that the amount of power they can generate from short ranges/bridges is down to "chi" or you can look at the clues. Don't you think it's coincidence that certain "chi" exercises makes your muscles ache the next day?

The thing with chi not being special is me saying that it isn't "magic" but that doesn't mean it still doesn't require a very long time. Tai Chi is practiced slowly because ultimately, it has to follow seven (or is it nine?) very strict rules. If you even slightly out with regards to these rules, then technically, the movement is wrong. In this respect, it is very much like old wikan magic. The process is so long and laborious that you are 99% guarenteed to get one step wrong and hence, the spell fails.

Getting the pure physical motions correct is by itself a very difficult thing to do; especially when you take into account that in all cases these days, you will be learning the motions in it's original taught form, from someone who would naturally apply it slightly differently according to his physical differences from the original and then you have to re-apply your own physical differences to the original form AND his version of it in practice.

In tai chi, this is made worse by the variations in applications of the original form and the differences between actual stressed practiced and slow two man drills.

The easiest way is to learn is to simply keep practicing the forms and the movements in application. In this scenario, "chi" becomes a way of not having to teach or to hide the fact that you don't know as much as you say you do. I mean, hey, in ten years time when you've learnt how to harness your chi, you mediocre forms' application would be highly improved (ignoring the ten extra years that you should've put into forms training as well). Take into consideration; learning to write with your other hand. It's not impossible, nor is it something that you don't know how it's supposed to be done; it just takes practice. Chi seems to have become the cop-out excuse for not having to practice properly.

I didn't mention the mental aspect because I think too much is placed on that as well. In the Chinese styles there is much more emphasis on being just used to doing something. You get used to punching solid bags to the point that walls are more or less punchable. You get used to getting hit in the ribs. You get used to bashing forearms against each other. It isn't mental in that you have to prepare yourself; it's mental in that it becomes normal like pretty much everything else you have to learn. Writing and typing isn't "normal" but use and practice makes it instintive.