Sick and tired of people putting down kung fu....

[nine_weapons]

this is why kung fu gets a bad rap:

this is a challenge that happened between third generation MASTER wu gongyi and white crane MASTER and founder of the international white crane organization. chan hak fu in 1954. I know most of you have seen this by now, in addition to the emin bozeteppe / william cheung debacle.

[nine_weapons]

people are going to put down any art when it is popular. in a way, it is good for those of us who are strong, because your opponents have a disadvantage when they believe you are a weak fighter, and find out later that your not.

not all kung fu styles are popular. MMA doesn't get bashed like CMA does, and MMA is at the height of it's popularity...

[NightOwl]

I've seen that video many times before, and it is often shown as the ultimate proof that kung fu is worthless. Looking up the fight a bit more, it was a challenge/charity match, and it never was finished because the referees were worried about injury. No kicks, locks, or throws/take downs were permitted, and they just ended up not really being able to get into each other's center, so they threw blows to each others forearms (although the taichiquan guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Kung-i did get some punches in to the face). By the end they started throwing kicks anyways, and the match was called off declaring it a draw. Having said all that...it was a terrible fight. There's a long discussion on it here: http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-18490.html .

Supposedly a magazine called the Qi journal did an in depth study of this fight in Vol. 12 issue 3, but I couldn't find it.

[nine_weapons]

I've seen that video many times before, and it is often shown as the ultimate proof that kung fu is worthless. Looking up the fight a bit more, it was a challenge/charity match, and it never was finished because the referees were worried about injury. No kicks, locks, or throws/take downs were permitted, and they just ended up not really being able to get into each other's center, so they threw blows to each others forearms (although the taichiquan guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Kung-i did get some punches in to the face). By the end they started throwing kicks anyways, and the match was called off declaring it a draw. Having said all that...it was a terrible fight. There's a long discussion on it here: http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-18490.html .

Supposedly a magazine called the Qi journal did an in depth study of this fight in Vol. 12 issue 3, but I couldn't find it.

yeah, I've seen a lot of the researching and threads about it. It was declared a draw in the second round. restriction or not, a "master" should have better hands than that. And if you read about it on biased sites, like wustyle.com, it sounds like it was a good fight, which it obviously was not. the fight was not originally meant to be a charity match. a local newspaper had been printing articles questioning taiji as a fighting style. gong yi responded by accepting a challenge from a crane master, but decided something good should come of it, so he requested that the proceeds go to charity.

FWIW, I don't think this proves kung fu is worthless, but it does show that the nostalgic view we have of "masters" may not always be deserved.

[ravenzoom]

First time I've seen this. I am very dissapointed with the mythical 'old chinese masters'. If this is what they all looked like maybe it is true that Kung Fu isn't that good. I sure hope I am mistaken, but I must admit that this video came as a shock to me. I'm sure there are better fighters out there. Although the Emin Boztep/Cheung fight didn't look all too good either. Without mentioning the poor results kung fu fighters have got in the ring. Let's face it, we rarely see any footage where a kung fu practitioner shows good fighting skill. All that being said I did do Wing Chun for 2 months and I am sure something good can come out of it. Anyways, I hope...

[nine_weapons]

sure it can. just make sure you pressure test what you are learning.

[NightOwl]

No, the 'tigers of canton' were noted for being able to beat up challengers, and reading firsthand accounts of battles for my Chinese history class, I would occasionally come across mentions of noteworthy martial artists who were very useful in battle. Check out the Baijiquan match earlier- looks similar to judo in some aspects. But guess what? these people weren't just training forms- they were USING them. If you didn't, than you could look forward to a few less teeth (dentistry wasn't all that great back then I guess, so maybe it didn't matter). The sad fact of the matter is that chinese martial arts have been practiced for generations now with no emphasis on fighting- mostly just forms- and the result is that CMA fighters are somewhat of a rarity. In the video in shown, there was a beautiful form demonstrated before the match. I bet you that master knew the form so well, that he could do it underwater in his sleep. I bet he also knew every single move that taichiquan/White crane had to offer...but the thing is, he didn't know how to fight. He had the knowledge (I can tell you how a classic armbar works) but not the practice (I couldn't actually pull an armbar on you). I forgot where I read the quote, but I thought it rang true: 'Being a martial artist is the only profession where you can be an expert in something you've never done. Please do check out this article again (as I can't quote the whole thing):

http://martialtaichi.co.uk/articles/how_taiji_lost_its_quan.php

Keep in mind, this site which is trying to put martial applications into taichiquan is CONTROVERSIAL. The majority of the taichi community as adverse to it....and I bet if you put them in a match they would fight very much like seen in the video.

[NightOwl]

Oh and also, just because people lived in the past doesn't mean that they were either more stupid or smart than we are (Aristotle is still cool, despite what they say). I don't want to get stuck on Taichiquan, but here's an interesting look at a Chinese historian who would've been alive at the time of the bout:

http://hunyuantaijiacademy.com/Masters/Tang%20Hao.aspx

People were interested in realistic applications...and still are today. However I think it all comes down to this: fighting is hard. Most people are not fighters, but want to feel like they are. Constant memorization of forms and slow techniques are a sure way to give you the confidence you want, without having to test it. CMAs are some of the most hard hit by this attitude, even more so by contemporary wushu coming onto the scene- I do hope that there is a revival of the martial spirit, but to be completely frank I do not see it coming.

[Martial_Artist]

I would have to agree with nine_weapons. He makes an enormous amount of valid points.

It's also way too late in the game for me to add my two cents.

But this has been a great thread to read. Excellent, indeed!

MA

[wildfire]

Lets say for argument sake though that there IS something wrong with Kung Fu. Is it not more likely the way that it is taught, not the art itself? Krav Maga has had a high success rate in applicability, but it is also taught to be applicable. After all, the roots of Kung Fu served successfully for to long to not be of value.