Sick and tired of people putting down kung fu....

[nine_weapons]

these videos are kung fu, not mma. i dont need to prove kung fu works. people who dont understand what they train for, damage the reputation, and yes, people can lose a fight even when they're really really good; to use mma examples matt hughes and chuck lydell - both excellent mma, both have been beaten.

1. what do pre-arranged, choreographed vids prove? those aren't examples of kung fu used in a fully resisting, all out situation.

2. of course hughes and liddel have been beaten. THEY ARE FIGHTERS. the only undefeated fighter is the one who has never fought. chuck has had 24 pro fights. naturally at some point, he will lose some of them. He is fighting other people who are also training to be the best.

as for anyone wanting to say that fine motor skill goes out the window when in a stressful environment let me remind you that repetitive training develops muscle memory: you dont have to think about the technique, the technique, or movements, come out as a reflex.

no need to remind - that is obvious. What is also obvious is that what is the most ingrained is that which is worked most - generally basics. If basics aren't ingrained well, flailing is the result.

And finally, you can argue that weapons make martial arts obsolete, but we choose to train to better ourselves both physically and spiritually. Even a toddler can aim a gun and shoot;a martial artist can develop the power to hurt or heal another.

not really. I get spirituality in church. My MA training has nothing at all to do with that. MARTIAL arts are just that - fighting arts. anything else people with to bundle it with is their decision. Any untrained adult can also develop the power to hurt or heal on their own free will. That is not spirituality at all.

[nine_weapons]

On a side note, since it is being mentioned here, I think ba ji is an awesome style.

[Kajukenbopr]

Perhaps the biggest problem that exists in Chinese Martial Arts training is that the training is mostly ignorant of other martial arts. A wing chun student will pretty much train with and against other wing chun people. Put them against a boxer/karateka/kickboxer who moves, hits and takes hits differently and things begin to become unstuck.

once again, you might have seen that somewhere, maybe with one school, however, wing chun works best against boxers or related styles, but you I have explained this a lot by now...

search for wing chun info.

[Kajukenbopr]

these videos are kung fu, not mma. i dont need to prove kung fu works. people who dont understand what they train for, damage the reputation, and yes, people can lose a fight even when they're really really good; to use mma examples matt hughes and chuck lydell - both excellent mma, both have been beaten.

1. what do pre-arranged, choreographed vids prove? those aren't examples of kung fu used in a fully resisting, all out situation.

2. of course hughes and liddel have been beaten. THEY ARE FIGHTERS. the only undefeated fighter is the one who has never fought. chuck has had 24 pro fights. naturally at some point, he will lose some of them. He is fighting other people who are also training to be the best.

as for anyone wanting to say that fine motor skill goes out the window when in a stressful environment let me remind you that repetitive training develops muscle memory: you dont have to think about the technique, the technique, or movements, come out as a reflex.

no need to remind - that is obvious. What is also obvious is that what is the most ingrained is that which is worked most - generally basics. If basics aren't ingrained well, flailing is the result.

And finally, you can argue that weapons make martial arts obsolete, but we choose to train to better ourselves both physically and spiritually. Even a toddler can aim a gun and shoot;a martial artist can develop the power to hurt or heal another.

not really. I get spirituality in church. My MA training has nothing at all to do with that. MARTIAL arts are just that - fighting arts. anything else people with to bundle it with is their decision. Any untrained adult can also develop the power to hurt or heal on their own free will. That is not spirituality at all.

I explained this already, but i will explain it again. Yes, the moves are choreography, that is how you train movements for self defense. Effective self defense training begins with fast drills to take out an opponent in seconds. Of course, not all self defense techniques will work as you want, thats why styles train for fighting- sanshou,sanda, pushhands, etc.

also, you are saying why most schools dont work on the streets- basics. most schools dont emphasize enough how polished the basics should be before going into something more advanced- the results are sloppy material application and sloppy fighting.

as for the going to church to find spirituality, not everyone goes to church and not all spirituality is religion, some of it is ascetics, some is philosophy.Do not confuse spirituality with faith in a religion.

[nine_weapons]

Perhaps the biggest problem that exists in Chinese Martial Arts training is that the training is mostly ignorant of other martial arts. A wing chun student will pretty much train with and against other wing chun people. Put them against a boxer/karateka/kickboxer who moves, hits and takes hits differently and things begin to become unstuck.

once again, you might have seen that somewhere, maybe with one school, however, wing chun works best against boxers or related styles, but you I have explained this a lot by now...

search for wing chun info.

I have talked to several WC guys who say the opposite. They also have told me that they try to adapt their WC strikes to more of a boxing style, as it seems more practical to them that way. One of these guys has over 20 years experience in WC.

[nine_weapons]

I explained this already, but i will explain it again. Yes, the moves are choreography, that is how you train movements for self defense. Effective self defense training begins with fast drills to take out an opponent in seconds. Of course, not all self defense techniques will work as you want, thats why styles train for fighting- sanshou,sanda, pushhands, etc.

the problem with many of those self defenses is they are WAY to long and drawn out. In muay thai, you won't see us doing anything that drawn out. Why not? because realistically, that won't happen. Chances are that you will not hit a person that many times unanswered. The result is that when you are interrupted, it throws you off, which is very bad. I had a friend who trained kempo and love some combination or technique called seven swords. I told him repeatedly that he would never be able to hit me seven times and all seven go unanswered.

Whenever we sparred, he would try it at least once. He was never able to land more than three of the seven strikes. Since he was already in the mode of throwing all seven techniques, when I interrupted him, it completely screwed with him mentally, because he was set on using seven strikes and I just stopped him too early. It left me with huge openings to counter.

also, you are saying why most schools dont work on the streets- basics. most schools dont emphasize enough how polished the basics should be before going into something more advanced- the results are sloppy material application and sloppy fighting.

I agree with this.

as for the going to church to find spirituality, not everyone goes to church and not all spirituality is religion, some of it is ascetics, some is philosophy.Do not confuse spirituality with faith in a religion.

No, not all spirituality is religion, and no, not everybody goes to church. however, what you are talking about is spirituality. That is just common sense based upon a person raised in a civilized society - social norms.

[Kajukenbopr]

kempo techniques perform lots of self defense techniques that are long, the point is not to perform them the whole 7,8, or 9 steps, it is a means to develop martial arts training without teaching the moves by themselves.

take for example kajukenbo techniques: we have an opening hit which leaves the opponent, follow up moves(either hits, take downs, throws etc, and groundfighting. The techniques are not designed to be followed exactly, but to develop the skills necessary, then like you say, part of the technique is performed in actual fighting, but the rest of the technique will most likely not come out. But having trained the movements in the techniques helps recognize certain moments in fights so you can perform the movements if you get the opportunity, not give 12 hits in a row(if you perform them well, the opponent might drop, if you fail to deliver one, you end up having to start over again)

i also think that depending on the kenpo style, techniques can be utopian, rather than practical, so you might end up just learning to strike the body repeatedly in a quick pace, without having to think much about it...

[NightOwl]

On a side note, since it is being mentioned here, I think ba ji is an awesome style.

Definitely.

[NightOwl]

On another note, Nine_weapons' friend would have been fine had he adapted his attack to an active environment. The fact that he can get in 3 hits against a mauy tai guy is great- the concepts behind the move are sound. However he stuck too robotically to the technique by trying to play out the whole thing just as he was always shown, and therein lies the problem with one step drills. Train in them too much, and you become too reliant. You need to constantly change tactics and adapt while in a fight, and sometimes I think that training too much in such a way provides a sense of overconfidence.

Next note.....

On the whole spirituality thing- I can respect that you get some sort of spiritual feeling from your martial art- but thats not the real purpose of studying something martial. Studying martial arts as part of a spiritual experience is somewhat of a modern sell- Martial artists have never been all gentleman warriors. Martial artists in China would brawl, not to heighten themselves spiritually, but just to see who was a better fighter (in fact, duels were banned after the 20th C). Yes, monks studied martial arts- so did gang members, secret societies, and overall not so nice guys. Taking an example from Japan- by the time Judo was coming about, Jujutsu practitioners had gained somewhat of a reputation as ruffians.

More notes...

Something that I find interesting- most of the more intact CMAs/ ones that practice sparring are on the whole all from southern China. This again has to do with a century of strife and social upheaval. Here are some examples of northern styles:

Tai Chi Quan (meaning in essence ultimate fist) :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_chi_chuan#History_and_styles

While I do not think that tai chi quan ever had the most effective kicks or blocks, it was at least one time trained martially (and had elements of Chinese fencing as well) and frankly as long as a martial art gives you some advantage in fighting over having no training at all, then whatever art fits you best I can respect (again though, if you aren't learning ANYTHING that could be useful martially, then I would question why you would take a martial art in the first place). Looking at it today, there is almost no martial application. I would go so far to say that the way MOST tai chi is taught, it is not a martial art. Otherwise, Tai chi quan has been consumed like many other of its northern brethren in the big machine known as wushu, with variations on taichiquan techniques tweaked for exhibition purposes.

Changquan (long fist)

A northern martial art with an emphasis on long range attacks suck as kicks and long punches, the point is to try to keep your opponent at a distance and hit them from there. There are actually take down and grappling techniques, however those are not practiced anymore outside of forms because....it is now one of the foundation arts of contemporary wushu. All forms for this art in wushu were standardized by the Chinese government, and when you see those forms with the huge butterfly kicks, side somersaults, and lots and lots of 'tricking', it's a good bet that it is Changquan .

Shaolin Kung fu:

The history of this place has not been a happy one, with it once having attracted many as a place of martial learning, it has been torn and shut down multiple times in the past. More recently however, the Chinese government has been sending troupes of shaolin monks off to spread Chinese culture. What is not told however, is that currently at the temple very few have knowledge of what was once there, as martial arts practice was strictly banned. Now they essentially perform a wushu curriculum with bits and pieces of collected knowledge of what they once had, and although it looks impressive (and takes much dedication and skill to pull off), it is not really designed for fighting. Here are some examples:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lRGm_Zv0ZeY&mode=related&search=

http://youtube.com/watch?v=URii0Xrkw34

Training in Europe: http://youtube.com/watch?v=e2vTWQj0t8w&mode=related&search=

Don't get me wrong- these guys can do stuff that I doubt anyone on these forums could do- not to mention that they've been training for a good portion of their lives. However as it can be seen, the Shaolin of today is definately more performance based.

[mantis.style]

Nightowl:

I'm not sure how to respond to your post. On the one hand, I am aware that Tai Chi that is seen in the public eye is mostly of the amr waving, "live for a hundred years" type, I also know that in practice, Tai Chi is very similar to things like White Crane, Mantis, Wing Chun and even Hung kuen. You might have noticed that I have mentioned before that I have trained mainly in Wing Chun but have also had some in depth experience (2+ years) in White Crane, some cross training with old southern Dragon style, Tai Chi and most recently, Southern Mantis. My choice of styles is purely because they are of similar origins, in the same locality and of roughly the same time period. Tai Chi stands alone but even then, the application of it is not that different to how some Wing Chun is applied and it is very similar to some White Crane.

The thing with Tai Chi is that the forms are still very old school. If I were to show you my main training form, you'd be hard pressed to see what might be a block because a lot of the form is to do with how to move instead of what to do. The most basic type of block is a simple outward/inward sweeping motion that is pretty much the same as a low bong sau or a crossing gate tan sau that opens to biu sau. It's not as flowery or as complicated as you might think. You are also right though, to say that most of Tai Chi that is taught today is probably the 32(?) step Modern Wushu form. Search out something like traditional Wudang, Yang or Chen and you'll find something very different.

You've got to be careful when you say "chang quen" because it is at the same time, a name of an actual style (Long Fist) as well as a name to describe a type of style. Typically Long Fist is taught as a general basic form and training would include other forms considered basic training like 12 Road (4 door) Tan Tui and Chin-Na and other training exercises like small plum blossom.

Long Fist does have one fault though. At the beginning, you are taught to do things exactly as you do it in the form. If you block with a you will follow with b etc etc. Naturally, as you learn more, you will have more things that you can follow with but this type of training isn't very intuitive and can sometimes leave you without an answer with something until you learn a new form. It isn't as "modular" as Wing Chun, Mantis, White Crane or even Tai Chi where even the most basic things can be enough. Of course, this is based on my limited (not quite a year) of training.