UFC _ Have any Karate Masters entered, and if so was result?

[sandinista]

At least 90% of our time was spent training techniques that are compeltely legal in the ring.

really? hmm, thats odd. I guess it depends on what type of karate you studied. For instance, we spend a lot of time on weapons training and striking to specific targets, and forms. Sure we do kicks, punches, etc, but they are all done without hand wraps or gloves (which change things a lot). Also, besides just eye gauges we practice throat strikes (illegal in mma), spine attacks (illegal in mma) small joint locks (illegal in mma), and of course kicks, and knees to grounded opponents (illegal in mma). I would have to agree with Montana, it IS apples and oranges. Two totally different things with training geared towards completley different objectives. mma is only worried about one unarmed opponent of the same general size and weight with a referee present in a controlled environment, that is NOT what someone studying karate is interested in.

[DokterVet]

At least 90% of our time was spent training techniques that are compeltely legal in the ring.

Also, besides just eye gauges we practice throat strikes (illegal in mma), spine attacks (illegal in mma) small joint locks (illegal in mma), and of course kicks, and knees to grounded opponents (illegal in mma). I would have to agree with Montana, it IS apples and oranges. Two totally different things with training geared towards completley different objectives.

Okay, but both the fights I mentioned occured before MMA was sanctioned, back when it was no holds barred/vale tudo fighting. At that point, only one thing you mentioned (eye gouges) were illegal, and those still happened, and were not as effective as claimed by most TMAists nowadays (please watch yuki nakai go on to win 2 fights on the same night AFTER his eye was gouged out by Gerard Gordeau).

Those other illegal techniques never came into play in early NHB/Vale Tudo in karate's favour. Chute Box fighters have used knees to a ground opponent to great effect, but they don't train them the same way that karateka do (if at all -- I never did). I've never seen anyone lose a fight by a finger or toe lock, so there's no reason to think that is unfairly holding anyone back in modern MMA.

Any techniques that weren't frequently practiced against full resistance failed in NHB, no matter how much deadlier they were than the safe-to-practice variety. Jigoro Kano's genius is evident in every NHB, Vale Tudo and MMA match. Make the techniques safe to practice with full resistance, and your skill with them will eventually outclasses anyone's skill with "deadly" techniques by such a wider margin that the deadly techniques are rendered moot. The proof of this is in all of the unsanctioned anything-goes matches that demonstrated it over and over again when all of those currently-illegal moves were legal.

My point is that it's not apples and oranges. In the arena that the karateka trains for (the street, in a house, school, etc), he will always be facing real, moving, reacting opponents, so the fundamental difference between techniques that work (practiced constantly with real distance against a fully resisting, moving opponent) and those that don't ("deadly", not safe to practice against a fully resisting, moving opponent, "pretended" more than trained) is still the greatest determining factor of the success of a technique.

That's why it's not apples and oranges. It's more like apples on a tree vs apples on a plate.

[TraditionalDan]

Also, besides just eye gauges we practice throat strikes (illegal in mma), spine attacks (illegal in mma) small joint locks (illegal in mma), and of course kicks, and knees to grounded opponents (illegal in mma). I would have to agree with Montana, it IS apples and oranges. Two totally different things with training geared towards completley different objectives.

I still agree with this, I have competition experience, and plenty of street experience that helps me know the difference.

The fact is, they are still completely different. As a karateka, I would rather train for one than the other. (Not competition).

[bushido_man96]

I don't think a karate master would ever want to fight in mma. All his best techniques would be illegal in the ring.

I disagree with this and think it is a cop-out. I earned a black belt and trained in karate for over 8 years. At least 90% of our time was spent training techniques that are compeltely legal in the ring. Every once in a while someone would mention an eye-gauge or something, but most classes were punches, kicks, blocks, backfists, hammerfists, shutos, haitos, nukites, some takedowns, etc. Almost all of it is legal in MMA.

Additionally, the illegal techniques that we did learn were not trained with full resistance, and full contact competition has shown that martial techniques not trained with full motion and resistence are almost never successfully applied against a real resisting opponent.

Finally, consider this: if the reason for karate's lack of success in the ring is because some of its techniques are outlawed, then if a particular karateka decided to spend 100% of his training time training the ring-legal karate techniques (using karate's training methods) wouldn't he be just as good at fighting in the ring as an MMAist who trains 100% in MMA's ring-legal techniques?

So why hasn't that happened?

You make a good point, Bearich.

I have another point to make: What about all of those Karate tournaments that took place in the 60s, 70s, and still today? If you can train your Karate for these tournaments, which have a bulk of MMA-ring legal moves, then why not take up some ground fighting, and make the transition?

[username8517]

You make a good point, Bearich.

Not my post. In fact, this is the first post I've had on this topic

[bushido_man96]

You make a good point, Bearich.

Not my post. In fact, this is the first post I've had on this topic

AAAAHH!!!! My bad, kudos to DokterVet! Sorry!

[NightOwl]

Ah- a bit late to the discussion (and to Karate forums in general but...)

This is just an observation, and it may be flawed, but it seems to me that the reason you don't see karate in the UFC is not because it can't be adapted, but because it's not one of the main North American styles currently in mma vouge. If you go to the Japanese MMA events (and MMA is bigger there then it is here), you get a lot more people with a striking background in Karate than you do here (and more judoka for that matter).

[Andrew_Patton]

I have another point to make: What about all of those Karate tournaments that took place in the 60s, 70s, and still today? If you can train your Karate for these tournaments, which have a bulk of MMA-ring legal moves, then why not take up some ground fighting, and make the transition?

because 90% of the karate tournaments today are either standing there punching each other in the chest or full-speed, over the top flick tag where two opponents hop wildly in the air and smack each other in the top of the head. Okay, I know I'm exagerating a little bit, but in my experience the vast majority of tournament karate goes similar (exageratedly simillar) to this and the majority of the participants do not want to get hit in the face. It's just a simple fact, when you don't like or are not used to getting hit flush and HARD you're not going to do well at something like MMA.

On the other hand, I enjoy getting hit, and have amateur boxing, kickboxing and MMA fights under my belt. So not all karate-ists are this way.

[bushido_man96]

You make good points, Patton. However, weren't the tourneys of the "Golden Years" of Karate tougher, with harder contact? With the likes of Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, Skipper Mullins, and Bill "Superfoot" Wallace, and Benny "the Jet" Uriquidez?

[Andrew_Patton]

Oh yes, of course, more contact and much tighter, you didn't see those guys doing half the bad habbits that our current karate tournament fighters have (lack of hip in punches, flashy techniques, being in the air to much) in fact, out of all those guys you mentioned, I've only seen one throw a spin kick, one time. Bill Wallace, and that was only AFTER a younger fighter threw that at him, he threw it just to show he could, other than that, they're all basic, straight-forward fighters with their own flavor that could take the right MMA fighters on the feet 9/10 times