Deadly techniques - are you prepared?

[cross]

Its possible to train most things, within reason and with a few modifications.

The different between brushing your hands across someones eyes and digging your fingers in is very slight. The difference between holding onto someones ear or ripping it off is very slight. The difference between driving a punching into someones chest or driving it into their throat is very slight. The difference between palmstriking someone in the face wearing protection at 75% power or hitting someone with no protection at 100% power is very slight.

Training has close as possible to reality is important if the thing your preparing for is reality. Anything less simply isnt going to cut it when things turn real.

[Martial_Artist]

I'm probably going to sound like a broken record here, but, I think anyone who calls themself a martial artist should be prepared to kill. And i mean kill more along the lines of utilizing deadly force, which is to include techniques design to inflict death as well as simply the force necessary to cause death. (i.e. a punch alone is not intended to kill instantly, however, repeated punches to an opponent's head on the concrete might cause death.)

What we do inherently lends itself to things warlike. It is the artist within us that makes us knights and gentlemen.

I believe it is the martial part of being a martial artist that affords us the possiblity of being an instrument in self-preservation. We have, many of us, the tools to defend life. There comes with that ability a burden concerning the fact of combat: it may take a time to kill to save a life.

I will use an example, although I really dont like using them (anyone can devise an act to suit their argument, but it's an attempt to illustrate a point):

There is very little you can do to prevent someone from breaking into your house. Doorlocks, alarm systems, fences, and gates do little more than provide a deterrent. If an individual is bent on entering your house, he will and there is little you can to stop him.

This doesn't mean you should't lock your doors or have an alarm. It simply demonstrates the tenacity of the human being. Very little stops the determined mind.

That being said, another human who possesses the sole intent of hurting you, of killing you, cannot be easily stopped.

(There is much to be said about mind over matter, but that would be for another thread).

I cannot agree with the philosophy of ruling out deadly force and accompanying techniques as a part of my arsenal. There are just too many evil people living out there.

As I have said elsewhere, just because you can doesn't mean you always. And that is the greatest thing about training: options and tools. Possessing a majority of which can alleviate performance stress.

Ask yourself, do you feel stressed out when fighting a lower ranked classmate? Compare that stress to fighting someone you think is better than you. How much stress do you feel then?

Perhaps the greatest element training offers to the combatant is the presence of mind.

Someone said, and I wish I could remember who, and I relate it to training: It's not that the harder tasks in life become easier it's that our ability to perform them becomes greater.

MA

[bushido_man96]

There are ways to train them. Most of the time, you would just train on the ways to get where you need to be, the set-ups, I guess. When the opportunity is there, you take it, if it is justifiable.

Training with fruit is a good way to kind of get a feel for what it may be like. Loren Christensen talked about a drill in one of his books where one partner lies on the ground with goggles on. The other partner kneels, and with a piece of fruit on the goggles, starts to dig his fingers into it. While doing that, the partner that is "getting his eye dug out" starts to flail, yell, and writhe in pain, to simulate the reactions of doing such a thing.

Sorry, but I laughed a bit when I pictured a soccer mom looking to take her 9 year old into martial arts and seeing this drill as soon as she walks in the door...

Well, that may not be the exact context in which it would be trained. The students that you would do these drills with would need to be able to understand the situation, and the circumstances that would make it justifiable.

I would hope that none of our children would have to face a situation that required the usage of such a technique.

[karateone]

i do know some of these moves. i train with the best of the best including cops, marine recon, army rangers etc. this is in their ciriculum. i would do anything to protect myself, my fiance, family, friends, land, and country.

[nine_weapons]

I'm probably going to sound like a broken record here, but, I think anyone who calls themself a martial artist should be prepared to kill. And i mean kill more along the lines of utilizing deadly force, which is to include techniques design to inflict death as well as simply the force necessary to cause death. (i.e. a punch alone is not intended to kill instantly, however, repeated punches to an opponent's head on the concrete might cause death.)

while this is easily said, I would wager that most people here would NOT actually kill when faced with the decision. to kill takes a certain type of mindset - a mindset that training MA these days actually trains OUT of people, not into them. I have seen several MA freeze in streetfight situations. The same MA would definitely freeze is posed with the need to kill as well.

What we do inherently lends itself to things warlike. It is the artist within us that makes us knights and gentlemen.

I am not sure why people think this... it is very untrue. If you look at the history of martial arts, it is generally associated with a criminal element.

china - triads, tongs and other gangsters. (ever hear wing chun referred to as gangsterfist?)

brazil - capoeira was associated with thugs and criminals, which is part of the reason it was banned.

france - savate was associated with thugs

the list goes on.

Perhaps the greatest element training offers to the combatant is the presence of mind.

I would argue the opposite. removal of mind is more important.

Someone said, and I wish I could remember who, and I relate it to training: It's not that the harder tasks in life become easier it's that our ability to perform them becomes greater.

if you are referring to someone on this form, it may have been me. I related it to training in the thread about the minimum age of black belts. In response to a comment about things getting easier after you get your black belt, I said something to the effect of 'black belt doesn't make it easier, years of training does. regardless of rank, the more time you spend training something, the easier it gets"

[bushido_man96]

What we do inherently lends itself to things warlike. It is the artist within us that makes us knights and gentlemen.

I am not sure why people think this... it is very untrue. If you look at the history of martial arts, it is generally associated with a criminal element.

china - triads, tongs and other gangsters. (ever hear wing chun referred to as gangsterfist?)

brazil - capoeira was associated with thugs and criminals, which is part of the reason it was banned.

france - savate was associated with thugs

the list goes on.

I am not sure I agree completely with you here, nine_weapons. In every society, there is always a need to fight. It may come from the bad, as you mention here, but it may also come from those who need to defend themselves from other territories. Perhaps not those that are bad, but are perceived as such due to differences between societies.

However, your point is a good one. It doesn't matter what style you study, be it Karate, Judo, Muay Thai, fencing, or MMA, there will always be those that we want to emulate, and there will be those who are dangerous people that you don't want anything to do with.

[nine_weapons]

I'm not saying only criminals train MA. I am saying that people have a notion that all martial artists are upstanding citrizens who follow some honorable warrior code. In most cases, this is not true. It is NOT the MA that make us "knights and gentlemen"

[Martial_Artist]

I said:

I'm probably going to sound like a broken record here, but, I think anyone who calls themself a martial artist should be prepared to kill. And i mean kill more along the lines of utilizing deadly force, which is to include techniques design to inflict death as well as simply the force necessary to cause death. (i.e. a punch alone is not intended to kill instantly, however, repeated punches to an opponent's head on the concrete might cause death.)

And then you replied:

while this is easily said, I would wager that most people here would NOT actually kill when faced with the decision. to kill takes a certain type of mindset - a mindset that training MA these days actually trains OUT of people, not into them. I have seen several MA freeze in streetfight situations. The same MA would definitely freeze is posed with the need to kill as well.

It wasn't meant to be easily said. I said anyone who calls themself a martial artist should be not is prepared to kill. Otherwise, as far as how I interpret the word martial artist, you are not a martial artist, but more of an athlete. Interpersonal human aggression is the universal human phobia, which is why a great majority of people "freeze" in conflict (stress elevated heart rate is a primary factor in producing the symptom of "freezing"). Training is what helps us continue despite our fears. That being said, I never said it was easy. Nor do I assume martial arts as a whole train their practitioners to do so. But, again, that goes back to what I consider a martial art. If the art does not prepare you then, for me and my purposes, it is not a martial art; but simply an art not much different from yoga or ballet.

Which leads to the next point:

I said in an earlier post:

What we do inherently lends itself to things warlike. It is the artist within us that makes us knights and gentlemen.

You responded:

I am not sure why people think this... it is very untrue. If you look at the history of martial arts, it is generally associated with a criminal element.

china - triads, tongs and other gangsters. (ever hear wing chun referred to as gangsterfist?)

brazil - capoeira was associated with thugs and criminals, which is part of the reason it was banned.

france - savate was associated with thugs

the list goes on.

I will try and use common terminology so that we can better understand one another. What we do as martial artists is, in and of itself, very violent, very martial, warlike, and in general not very nice. Hence what we do inherently lends itself to things warlike. And it is. Learning to punch, kick, break, and kill are all elements of the darker side of the human species.

I do not think you understand what you mean when you say the history of the martial arts. Perhaps, you merely meant the history of how martial arts have been employed since their creation. And this might be because you assume I was speaking of the history of the employment of martial arts. Which I was not, however, this is not much different from the existence of firearms. There are many accounts which can clearly demonstrate a gun being used by the 'criminal element' or more aptly in ways less desireable by society. But the gun does not define the shooter. Nor does the martial art define the artist.

Triads, street-gangs, thugs have always and will continue to employ what they can to promote what they do. That's just a part of being a dirt-bag.

What, then, separates you and I from the thugs? What is the difference between someone who uses wingchun to rob, pillage, and commit crime from a person who uses wingchun to defend himself or others?

I call it the artist part of being a martial artist. The noble part, if you will believe in such a human trait as I do. It is this 'artist' part of being a martial artist that gives the world the knights, the paladins, the gentlemen, the soldier, and the police officer. And this does not have to extend to professions where life and death hang in the balance. It can extend to the father or husband, mother of wife, brother and sister, neighbor seeking to provide a means for the themselves against the 'criminal element'. That notion, I believe, is noble.

Hence, though what we do as martial artists is violent, is closely related to 'criminal element' it is the artist part of us, the part seeking a means against the evil that makes us knights and gentlemen. Protectors and defenders. Whether for society as a whole or simply just for yourself.

And that is based on what I believe the term martial artist refers to. Anyone else who uses the martial arts for "criminal elements" is not a martial artist, but merely a thug.

Now my next quote I believe was simply a misunderstanding and a lack of clarity on my part.

I said:

Perhaps the greatest element training offers to the combatant is the presence of mind.

To which you replied:

I would argue the opposite. removal of mind is more important.

I could not agree further. What happened here I believe was a failed attempt on my part to relate the duality of my statement. I attempted to communicate a complex thought with a simple statement and, as evidenced by your misunderstanding, I failed.

I have been an advocate of training to forget. This is seen in my prior posts and I need not go into depth to explain that position, however, I do need to explain my above quote.

Training affords confidence. Confidence lessens stress. Less stress equates to less performance anxiety. A clearer mind or presence of mind to make decisions. When you see someone freeze up it is because their mind has gone haywire. They don't know what to do or are afraid. Training helps that. So, with the presence of mind, i.e. calmness of stress, you are free to allow your training to assume its proper role.

You have noticed this. Anyone who fights someone that intimidates them knows the difference when they fight someone they know they can beat. You are more relaxed. Your mind is able to free itself. You don't have to "think" about what to do.

Training provides for the fulfillment of the statement (I do not quote this 100% word for word): when the opportunity to hit presents itself I do not hit. It hits all by itself.

So, I do agree with you. Trying to think your way through a fight will get you hurt. I was just unclear in the way I presented my statement.

Next, I was quoting someone and it was not you. And it was not about blackbelts. Though I do not remember the name I do remember the context. It was about facing spiritual challenges in life. I like to relate the quote to training.

You later replied to a different post:

I'm not saying only criminals train MA. I am saying that people have a notion that all martial artists are upstanding citrizens who follow some honorable warrior code. In most cases, this is not true. It is NOT the MA that make us "knights and gentlemen"

I hope now, with my above clarification that it is more obvious as to my meaning. As far as I am concerned anyone calling themself a martial artist does follow some sort of moral code and does seek to be a upstanding citizen. Otherwise, as far as my definition of the word is concerned, they are not martial artists. I believe they would fall more appropriately in the category of thug. Or if they are not seeking to commit crime, but do nothing to be a better unit of society, I call that someone vain. But that is my wording it means nothing to anyone but to me and it certainly not worth arguing over.

And again, true, it is not the martial art that makes us "knights and gentlemen". It is the artist.

I hope I clarified my obviously unclear statements. I won't re-explain myself because it appears to more or less be an issue of definition. What you perceive to be a martial artist and what I perceive to be a martial artist.

CHEERS!

MA.