the basic uke blocks - are they of any real use?

[Kajukenbopr]

hi all

Been wondering for years now why we spend so much time on age uke, uchi uke etc when they seem so slow and completely irelevant during sparring, and therefore I presume, a real defence situation.

I was hoping that as I got further along the karate route, this would become clear, but at 2Kyu, I'm still no wiser (although I admit I'm still very much a Karate 'beginner') Are they really strikes as well as blocks? Or maybe i'm simply not quick enough as yet to make these count? Or are they just a training excercise?

During sparring most of the blocks are open hand covers, or 'slaps' to simply and quickly evade an incoming kick or punch. Theres not a chance I could use any of the traditional blocks during sparring - just too slow.

Anyone care to enlighten me?

thanks

Neil

if you dont drill your blocks with a partner, you wont be able to use them, specially, if you trained ur body to make them slow instead of second nature.

keep training

[mantis.style]

Don't know about you but when I flinch, I do tend to go into a guard hands. This doesn't target the incoming but aims to cover myself to get my hands where I am more able to do more with them once contact is established. So it isn't really a block; it's more or less sticking my hands out in front of me but in a slightly more useful manner to me. It's a very slight difference in principle in that you don't block the incoming, you cover yourself from whatever might come in but it makes a lot of difference. We describe it as not seeking the hand.

[cross]

The flinch itself occurs during the first moment or the surprise attack. From there, your trained response(if it flows from the position your flinch puts you in) comes into play, the problem occurs when your trained response doesnt fit in with your bodies natural flinch, because the time it will take to convert your flinch into something that isnt similar will take alot longer than it will for a gross motor technique like jamming with your arms.

[mantis.style]

Again, this might be a difference in stylistic approaches. For me/us, everything happens after first contact is made. Before that contact, it is all about covering not blocking. All of the complex little movements you see i training are not for the most part meant to be used from the word go. However, the simple moves are. I'll use wing chun as an example as most people will know that better than a mantis style or white crane.

When you flinch, most people will bring their hands up to cover their face/head, often hands semi-outstretched, palms facing out. In case you never noticed, this is more or less wing chun guard hands/asking hands position. The aim of the wing chun "controlled" version is to cover centreline with both hands with elbows to cover the outside gates if neccessary. Most schools that I know also teach the "instant guard hand" along with a step; to the point that the two are inseperable

i.e you don't do an asking hand without the step.

I wish I could show you because that would be so much easier than trying to explain in words. For the record and so you have some point of reference, what I learnt is in part used by the HK police. Now I know that it doesn't really mean much but especially seeing as they have different goals but you can train a flinch.

[cross]

you can train a flinch.

I find this to be incorrect. You can greatly reduce the time in which it takes you to go from flinching to using a more technical tool (jam, block, strike) etc. But the flinch itself is an automatic response that involves no cognitive thought so it cannot be trained, or altered.

[swdw]

you can train a flinch.

This is a big selling point of the SPEAR system, which unfortunately has LOTS of holes in it. Cross is right, you don't train a flinch- you train to work off the flinch.

[mantis.style]

See, I'm not sure how to go about explaining this. I flinch differently to different stimuli. If a punch like thing is coming towards me, I do instinctively put out my hands in guard hands position. That is my flinch to something coming towards my face. For me, there is no moment when I need to go from flinch to form because I don't need to change from one to another. Now that could just be my guard hands position is near enough the same as a normal open hand flinch reaction but the points is still true for me in that there is also no cognitive thought involved in me doing the guard hands position either.

I do have a question though; when you say "flinch" are you talking specifically about the instant "jump" or the whole process from jump to movment (or non-movement) because I have a feeling that we are talking about the same thing but differently.

[cross]

I do have a question though; when you say "flinch" are you talking specifically about the instant "jump" or the whole process from jump to movment (or non-movement) because I have a feeling that we are talking about the same thing but differently.

Im talking about the natural reaction to throw the hands up(often in the direction close to the threat) and at times move backwards, lift a knee, shrug the shoulders, close your eyes etc. Thats your bodies natural defense mechanism to a frontal threat. And you are correct people will flinch differently to different stimulus, and differently depending on their bodies initial position.

Its very possible that your guarding hand has been trained long enough that the time between your flinch and the guarding hands has been cut down enough that it seems the guarding hands is your natural reaction, either that or you have not experiences an actually completely surprising stimulus.

This is a big selling point of the SPEAR system, which unfortunately has LOTS of holes in it. Cross is right, you don't train a flinch- you train to work off the flinch.

swdw, have you seen any of the spear material? I have recently ordered the first spear dvd and will let you know what i find. But from what i have read so far on Blauers site etc it seems they do border on implying that you can train your flinch. But im hoping they mean the same thing you and i have mentioned about using a technical application from the flinch, not altering the flinch itself.

[mantis.style]

it's funny that you mention lifting knee and shrugging of shoulders.

In wing chun, the knee is used/lifted to cover the lower half of your body. Going back to the asking hands I mentioned earlier, some schools also teach the knee lift as part of the asking hand movements. I should add that "asking hand" is just the name of the movement and isn't a technique. Basically, it is how you go into meet anything that incoming.

As for my own guarding hand, I'd like to think that it might the first option. In all likelyhood, it's probably the latter. I have my own anecdotal stories of surprise attacks by way of things thrown at me or someone suddenly trying to stick something on me (in the playful) manner that was 100% unexpected to which I (over)reacted by way of going into my guard hands but I also know that's not the same as a sudden aggressive action.

Again, though, I just want to stress that the average flinch type movements isn't that far off from our guard hands/asking hands movements. I should say though, that this is giving me ideas of what to try the next time I am leading a group in training.

[SaiFightsMS]

Learning the basic blocks is only a beginning. Only when the basic blocks come smoothly, quickly and with force can you begin to really put them to work. Consider a simple head block - what happens when you follow that up by bringing your hand down into a backfist across the bridge of the nose. You need the force of the upper block to get the hand out of the way and the speed to bring it back down with force.

How about the down block, can you see it used as a stike? Next time you are standing next to someone bring your down block down to the side they are standing on and aim for the cojones.

Or maybe notice the resemblance between a side block and a back fist strike to the ribs of someone next to you.

Every move you learn has multiple applications. A move is not truly yours until you can begin to discover ways to use it on your own.