the basic uke blocks - are they of any real use?

[P.A.L]

hi all

Been wondering for years now why we spend so much time on age uke, uchi uke etc when they seem so slow and completely irelevant during sparring, and therefore I presume, a real defence situation.

I was hoping that as I got further along the karate route, this would become clear, but at 2Kyu, I'm still no wiser (although I admit I'm still very much a Karate 'beginner') Are they really strikes as well as blocks? Or maybe i'm simply not quick enough as yet to make these count? Or are they just a training excercise?

During sparring most of the blocks are open hand covers, or 'slaps' to simply and quickly evade an incoming kick or punch. Theres not a chance I could use any of the traditional blocks during sparring - just too slow.

Anyone care to enlighten me?

thanks

Neil

you need to pass through block-punch karate, the first step to do this is changing your mind set, try to block/parry with your back hand then block/strik with your front hand

the next step is to block/parry with back hand and strik directely from under or over the block.

if you block with front hand then you should strik right after block with the same hand.

sparring is different from a fight, there is no comitment in sparring,

[lordtariel]

sparring is different from a fight, there is no comitment in sparring,

I may or may not disagree with you there depending on your meaning. If by commitment you mean the person is committed to stomping you into the ground then I agree. If you mean they aren't committed in general I disagree. To do well in sparring you have to be committed to your attacks, you can't just do them half-heartedly. That might work against some people, but someone who's good is just going to pick you apart.

[P.A.L]

sparring is different from a fight, there is no comitment in sparring,

I may or may not disagree with you there depending on your meaning. If by commitment you mean the person is committed to stomping you into the ground then I agree. If you mean they aren't committed in general I disagree. To do well in sparring you have to be committed to your attacks, you can't just do them half-heartedly. That might work against some people, but someone who's good is just going to pick you apart.

i was in a seminar with kyoshi Perry/Estes last week, like they say , there is no perfect fight, you will get hit anyway but the outcome is important, if I get to a point that i have to fight somebody i fight with my fingers because this is how i train, in sparing ,we put the gloves and other safty gears on, yet i wouldn't hit to disable the sparing partner.

in sparing we use lots of jabs and strategy evolves around it, in a real fight it is most likely a reverse punch comming at you from the begining.

in a sparing you may turn toward the strong hand but in a fight you don't wanna try that.

there are many things different bewteen sparring and fighting and the okinawans didn't make their system for sport, it used to be a budo.

[cross]

I made a post in a different section of the forum that relates very much to this topic, it can be found at:

http://www.karateforums.com/attachment-to-style-vt31519.html

[NeilT]

sparring is different from a fight, there is no comitment in sparring,

I may or may not disagree with you there depending on your meaning. If by commitment you mean the person is committed to stomping you into the ground then I agree. If you mean they aren't committed in general I disagree. To do well in sparring you have to be committed to your attacks, you can't just do them half-heartedly. That might work against some people, but someone who's good is just going to pick you apart.

i was in a seminar with kyoshi Perry/Estes last week, like they say , there is no perfect fight, you will get hit anyway but the outcome is important, if I get to a point that i have to fight somebody i fight with my fingers because this is how i train, in sparing ,we put the gloves and other safty gears on, yet i wouldn't hit to disable the sparing partner.

in sparing we use lots of jabs and strategy evolves around it, in a real fight it is most likely a reverse punch comming at you from the begining.

in a sparing you may turn toward the strong hand but in a fight you don't wanna try that.

there are many things different bewteen sparring and fighting and the okinawans didn't make their system for sport, it used to be a budo.

kyoshi Perry - is that the same instructor who set up Seike Juke Karate in London? If so I trained under his classes some years back. Was most known for his breaking ability - Ice, tiles, etc etc

Neil

[bbk2132]

they may not feel like traditional blocks when you are sparring, but essentially you are using the same muscle. Practicing the blocks in the fundemental form trains your muscles to know what to do, so that it feels more natural when you spar.

[Andrew_Patton]

Bravo swdw, that was actually a pretty nice video to watch, almost makes me want to learn a little bit of Goju from you. It's exactly like you said, if you have confidence in your technique it'll work, I've recently began using lunge and reverse type punches in sport type sparring (the type where everyone and there mother decides to 'box') and using the up-ending style you show in that vid makes using completely traditional strikes that "everyone knows" very easy to score with.

I'd like to know what some others have to think about this vid, I wonder if ShorinRyuu has seen it, if this is close to the osae he speaks about now...

[Justin Treadaway]

Bravo swdw, that was actually a pretty nice video to watch, almost makes me want to learn a little bit of Goju from you. It's exactly like you said, if you have confidence in your technique it'll work, I've recently began using lunge and reverse type punches in sport type sparring (the type where everyone and there mother decides to 'box') and using the up-ending style you show in that vid makes using completely traditional strikes that "everyone knows" very easy to score with.

I'd like to know what some others have to think about this vid, I wonder if ShorinRyuu has seen it, if this is close to the osae he speaks about now...

Do you really think so. From what i saw from the video it would work if the attacker only throws one punch, but if you notice the left hand has a straight shot to his face nearly every time. Even when he pulled the guy to the side he is pulling him with the punch, in turn would just make the punch more natural and do more damage. Thats why i prefer deflections to blocks.

[Andrew_Patton]

honestly, I do believe so, I don't quite do it like the demonstrator in the video does, but the way that I off-balance when I spar, and follow up with normal good ole' basic techniques, leads me to being able to score on your basic "point sparring" character. Of course, you also have to take into account that in a real fight (been there, trust me) everyone tends to "over-commit" not try to out-box each other and turn the pace of the fight with a few quick jabs, but take each other's head off.

I have to say though, flawed as it may be, it at least shows a bit of faith in your system, which is a good thing. With proper work, training and pollish it's a very viable thing, to use your normal "proper" blocking techniques.

[swdw]

Do you really think so. From what i saw from the video it would work if the attacker only throws one punch, but if you notice the left hand has a straight shot to his face nearly every time. Even when he pulled the guy to the side he is pulling him with the punch, in turn would just make the punch more natural and do more damage. Thats why i prefer deflections to blocks.

Here's the thing- this was done at an easy pace so someone could see what's going on. The video was made to answer questions about "what do you mean concentrate on the process, not just the end point?" So it was made to talk about the process of the arm movement in a narrow context. There's a lot more to this, and footwork was barely discussed.

Now- the idea of the left had having a shot does not consider the effect you are creating on the opponents body. Why - cuz this was not done at anything close to regular speed. Done correctly, the left hand is out of play because of positioning, body shock, or other reasons. Also, done at an easy pace and explaining the components, it looks like thes moves are sequential when in fact they are simultaneous. Have yet to see a one two combination be faster than a simultaneous block and strike, or in the case of the shoulder lift, a simultaneous parry / off balance.

More than one person has thought the same thing when this is done at half speed. I've had people tell me they can back off before the block when moving outside and lifting the shoulder, or they can get the follow up punch in when jamming with the crossing hand and striking with the forearm, etc, etc.

First- keep in mind that nothing is fool proof and there is always a trade off in anything you do. That being said- Here's what's happened when these are done full speed with other black belts that thought this wasn't very effective

1. The person lands on the floor 2-5 feet away from you- no second punch possible

2. Body gets shocked so hard it delays the follow on punch when jamming a roundhouse with the age uke. You don't pull the crossing hand- it's in a perfect position for an uppercut or barely has to move to block a follow up strike. As that happens, the hand that jammed the punch slides down hard and the forearm catches the brachial plexus.

3. Person tries to roll away when lifting the shoulder- problem is their back is towards you- buffet is now open

4. Head and body get bent backwards- what is not shown in the video is the leg contact done when moving in on many of the techniques- this really screws the opponents balance and takes the back hand out of play or makes it ineffective.

5. Other various and sundry things including spinning the opponent, putting him on his toes on one foot, taking him down with the leg engagement, etc

There are 2 things that are important and when you are just teaching the hand movements, they are not discussed- one is intermediate angling and positioning.

Second is when you move towards the opponent, you wind up jamming the attack or striking with your entire body weight- not just the arm. The effect on the attacker can be pretty harsh. Because of this, on some of the moves, you have to pull the technique drastically or move easily to prevent injury during practice, and you won't see the full effect of the movements.

So, think what you like, but I have my students do this against a charge or multiple attacks after they've practiced it, been taught correct angling and footwork, and get the movement down correctly. The results are pretty consistent, rarely does a second attack get a chance, and if you train them right they are in a position to evade /parry/jam it and the other hand is now in a position to strike or totally blow your opponents balance. Attackers have even had their punching arm go temporarily numb from the contact. The other thing you don't do is stop putting the pressure on the opponent once you've made contact.

Against the "normal" roundhouse punch on the street- the overcommitment Andrew talks about works in your favor because of the angling used.

As an aside, if an attacker throws a jab, the defender changes what he's doing as he moves in because he can feel the withdrawal- and he's in a position to exercise other options.