the basic uke blocks - are they of any real use?

[NeilT]

hi all

Been wondering for years now why we spend so much time on age uke, uchi uke etc when they seem so slow and completely irelevant during sparring, and therefore I presume, a real defence situation.

I was hoping that as I got further along the karate route, this would become clear, but at 2Kyu, I'm still no wiser (although I admit I'm still very much a Karate 'beginner') Are they really strikes as well as blocks? Or maybe i'm simply not quick enough as yet to make these count? Or are they just a training excercise?

During sparring most of the blocks are open hand covers, or 'slaps' to simply and quickly evade an incoming kick or punch. Theres not a chance I could use any of the traditional blocks during sparring - just too slow.

Anyone care to enlighten me?

thanks

Neil

[repz]

Yeah, i wondered the same thing when i started in shotokan back then. If anything, i was under the impression that they were for self defense situations where you arent sparring an where fights end with a good hit or wrist lock. But either way i doubted its effectiveness, now my new style uses open hand blocks, an we use it for sparring an self defense.

My guess... is that back then they didnt spar, they didnt have sport karate. So they never really tested these blocks in prolonged matches, it was more theory then practice, an back then it was all based on kata training. I abandoned those blocks for parries.

[french fri25]

i think traditional blocks are very useful. it just depends on the person using them. obviously during a fight you are not going to chamber your block, you are just going to block the kick or punch as fast as you can. i tried using parries when i first started martial arts and would always get hit in the fingers when i left my hands open. i think that mma people and sport karate styles made open hand parries because they are easier and faster to learn. plus, in point and light contact sparring, you arent going to get hit that hard so there is little risk to your fingers. in point sparring all you need to do is tap the kick or punch and you will not get hit. in a full contact match if you block with your hand open, the technique will go right through your block. if get hit in the fingers, you will probably break them. closed blocks also tend to be stronger and stand up to hard kicks and punches better.

[Shorin Ryuu]

hi all

Been wondering for years now why we spend so much time on age uke, uchi uke etc when they seem so slow and completely irelevant during sparring, and therefore I presume, a real defence situation.

Yeah, i wondered the same thing when i started in shotokan back then. If anything, i was under the impression that they were for self defense situations where you arent sparring an where fights end with a good hit or wrist lock. But either way i doubted its effectiveness, now my new style uses open hand blocks, an we use it for sparring an self defense.

My guess... is that back then they didnt spar, they didnt have sport karate. So they never really tested these blocks in prolonged matches, it was more theory then practice, an back then it was all based on kata training. I abandoned those blocks for parries.

Back then, they used these blocks for fighting, not sport karate or any sort of practice that falls short of fighting.

If your "traditional blocks" are slow and seemingly ineffective, then either you are doing them improperly or perhaps your style itself is doing them in a different manner than was originally taught. For many people, the fault is only minimally their own, as they haven't been taught any differently.

Does your hand go out to meet the attack or does it go back in some sort of chamber or catch position? Does your hand float out effortlessly or are you relying on a slowing hip motion to initiate your technique's movement? Are you loose when your hand moves out (my style keeps a tight fist and forearm but relaxed upper arm and shoulder) or are you unconsciously tightening up in anticipation of a "strong strike"? Are you striking across or are you just trying to push down? Can you generate enough power to end a confrontation with your block or at least working towards that objective or have you dismissed the idea as naive? Do you understand the proper stance, posture and body weight transfer to generate power or are you just moving your arms?

These are just several of the questions you may ask yourself when looking at traditional blocks.

[repz]

An open hand parry isnt meant to meet the power of an attack, it redirects it. An the only thing that can break your fingers is something powerful like a kick, an i wouldnt advise blocking any kick with any block. An my style does open hand blocks, but we use our forearms as the blocking area, reason for the open hand, is for the control an sensativity, we also grapple so we keep our hands open.

[pers]

hi all

Been wondering for years now why we spend so much time on age uke, uchi uke etc when they seem so slow and completely irelevant during sparring, and therefore I presume, a real defence situation.

I was hoping that as I got further along the karate route, this would become clear, but at 2Kyu, I'm still no wiser (although I admit I'm still very much a Karate 'beginner') Are they really strikes as well as blocks? Or maybe i'm simply not quick enough as yet to make these count? Or are they just a training excercise?

During sparring most of the blocks are open hand covers, or 'slaps' to simply and quickly evade an incoming kick or punch. Theres not a chance I could use any of the traditional blocks during sparring - just too slow.

Anyone care to enlighten me?

thanks

Neil

Hi , I have been trainig in shotokan since 1984 . those blocks are there for a good reason .you are a 2nd kyu and there are times you will become frustrated ,everyone will go through this stage ,so did I .

Be patient and never give up .in your trainig with your club mates , you should have an attitude of helping each other out during for example "kihon kumite " one attck basic sparring ,by going full blow in jodan to hit them on the chin and thus make them block your punch !

and so on ,this way yoou all have a meaningful training .

it is not about competing against each other but helping eachother in this way to improve . try to do it with senior grades who are faster and better ,this way you will improve your own technique .

brown belt is the stage that you should be working towards becoming more relaxed and less tense .once you reach shodan you should be a lot faster .

I never forget the days as a kyu grade facing my 5th dan sensei in kihon kumite and got hit everytime but also learned great lessons that would always be with me . khion kumite all of a sudeen becomes like fighting for your life when facing such a master who is so fast and powerful that ina blink of an eye he has stepped forward and punched in the chin or his front kick has landed in your belly !!

this was the start of my journey and later on it all came to aid me in dojo kumite "randoori " .

i give you one example of effectiveness of those blocks ,I have seen one scoring a knockdown with age uke (rising block ) under the chin that would have earned a full ippon in competition !

with correct timing and distance ,moving forward to meet the incoming attack under the chin ,bang ! it could be a knock out !

[GOM]

If you are practising those blocks on the spot, or moving forward and back by yourself, then the blocks are there to make your kata prettier.

If you are practising those blocks with a partner who is throwing "real" punches at your head, and you are using those blocks with a strong arm, then you are practising those blocks for SD principles.

Both are fine, you just have to know which boat you are in.

[cross]

I was hoping that as I got further along the karate route, this would become clear, but at 2Kyu, I'm still no wiser (although I admit I'm still very much a Karate 'beginner') Are they really strikes as well as blocks? Or maybe i'm simply not quick enough as yet to make these count? Or are they just a training excercise?

Neil, after training all the way to 2nd kyu and you still feel that you cant use the blocks effectively. Perhaps its that the blocks are just not effective. In my opinion anything designed for self defence purposes should be able to be picked up and used effectively in a short period of time. When it comes to defensive techniques specifically, i believe that the bodies reflexive responses when fine tuned a little will provide you will much greater and useful protection than any traditional block that takes 10 years of practice to be able to use. If your really unsure look at how people who deal with full contact strikes deal with them, rarely will it look like traditional blocks.

I think you have reached a point that most reach when training in a traditional art. The point where you ask "would this really work?" If you have to ask and cant see it working in training then what are the chances of it working for real? If you are have some attachment to your current style you can continue and try to force the less effective techniques to work, but if you are looking for practicality, perhaps you can look elsewhere and find techniques that are more applicable.

[Mike Flanagan]

Anyone care to enlighten me?

Hi Neil

IMO all the basic movements (the strikes as well as the blocks) all just express principles of power generation. They can be used in different ways - to block perhaps yes, but also to strike, to choke, to lock, to throw. Too few karate people understand this. Even those that have had their eyes opened often still insist on repeating some of the ritualistic practices of their earlier training (eg. keeping the hand on the hip when its not doing anything useful).

Consider this to get you thinking about it. Start from the premise that whenever you chamber your fist at your hip you've actually got hold of the opponent with that hand (often, but not always, by grabbing his wrist). Now what would you do with the movement the other hand is doing?

Its a shame you didn't manage to train with Vince Morris when he was still teaching in Nottingham. He would have certainly answered your questions on this subject. However, you can still get to train with members of his organisation at South Normanton.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dave.hague/index.htm

I'd highly recommend you pop down there and check them out. Even if you can't make it on a regular basis you could try the 6 weekly training sessions they do. What have you got to lose? You may decide its rubbish so you've wasted a few hours training, or you may find it revolutionises the way you do karate.

Mike

[pers]

I think you have reached a point that most reach when training in a traditional art. The point where you ask "would this really work?" If you have to ask and cant see it working in training then what are the chances of it working for real? If you are have some attachment to your current style you can continue and try to force the less effective techniques to work, but if you are looking for practicality, perhaps you can look elsewhere and find techniques that are more applicable.

if it doesen't work don't blame the system ,the problem is not with the traditionl art . after 23 years in karate and going through various stages in my training I know they work ,but the way it works for me now is a lot diferrent than when I was a green belt and it certainly shoulden't take 10 years to develope .

but training and quality of instruction is varied from club to club and that is the most important factor to consider .

is this roundhouse kick just a pretty looking high kick or can it actualy land in someone's head and do damage ?!

is this rising block just looks effective or can it be effective in defence and attack when deployed properly ?

if they don't ,then there is something seriousely wrong with the way it was taught .