Blocking and parrying in combat

[bushido_man96]

the thing is, formal blocks do work and you could even use every formal move to make a fight,

Any proof?

As far as the whole "formal" way of blocking, i.e., crossing the amrs, executing the block with one arm, and pulling the other hand back to the ribs, I don't think will happen a whole lot in a fight, and neither would it be wise to pull your off hand out of your window of defense. However, I do think that a solid block with the forearm can work in self-defense, but its motion will not be to the extreme that it is seen in forms. The arm will move from its position (be it guarding, down, up, or whatever) into the block position, with a hard, jolting snap, if trained properly, while the other arm can be held in the window of defense. After the block, the same arm can lead into a counter.

[Kajukenbopr]

the thing is, formal blocks do work and you could even use every formal move to make a fight,

Any proof?

As far as the whole "formal" way of blocking, i.e., crossing the amrs, executing the block with one arm, and pulling the other hand back to the ribs, I don't think will happen a whole lot in a fight, and neither would it be wise to pull your off hand out of your window of defense. However, I do think that a solid block with the forearm can work in self-defense, but its motion will not be to the extreme that it is seen in forms. The arm will move from its position (be it guarding, down, up, or whatever) into the block position, with a hard, jolting snap, if trained properly, while the other arm can be held in the window of defense. After the block, the same arm can lead into a counter.

you are thinking like a boxer. Blocks(in karate) are supposed to be quick, but they are not "slaps", the block is supposed to be as hard as a strike because they are designed to hurt the opponents limb, not guide the blow out of the way.

besides, the only reason why blocks and punches are practiced at the side of the ribs is to use the strength of the arm and the back when you strike, as opposed to getting ur elbow high up before attempting to strike. When you fight you dont pull your arms back all the way(you do protect your face and body from strikes, but your body will be accustomed to keeping ur elbows down without hunching forwards.

[bushido_man96]

you are thinking like a boxer. Blocks(in karate) are supposed to be quick, but they are not "slaps", the block is supposed to be as hard as a strike because they are designed to hurt the opponents limb, not guide the blow out of the way.

besides, the only reason why blocks and punches are practiced at the side of the ribs is to use the strength of the arm and the back when you strike, as opposed to getting ur elbow high up before attempting to strike. When you fight you dont pull your arms back all the way(you do protect your face and body from strikes, but your body will be accustomed to keeping ur elbows down without hunching forwards.

I was not thinking like a Boxer (although, that may not be a bad thing). I thought that the way I described the process made it sound like the block was a very hard motion, terminating in a solid position, intercepting the attack in a very solid manner. The off-hand does stay in Boxer-like guarding position, however, that is where the Boxing similarities end.

The reason that I stated the original position of the hand the way that I did is because when you get jumped, you are not likely going to be able to start from your standard MA class fighting stance. Therefore, your hand starts from where ever it is.

[cross]

Interesting discussion. I find it strange that people continue to state that traditional karate blocks are are highly practical way of defending against strikes.

Firstly, these techniques are fairly attack specific. So you need to be able to interpret what is coming at you while its in motion. To block a punch to the face, you use a rising block, but you wont know its a punch to the face until they are already at least half way through doing the punch, and thats if you are able to see it at all.

Also, the idea that a block is a strike, or that you should be blocking has hard has you strike doesnt make sense when you consider that the attacker is already far ahead of you because they are acting, and all you can do is react to whats coming at you, this doesnt leave you with a great deal of time to see what they are throwing, choose the appropriate technique, and then execute it hard, all within the short space you have left before you get hit.

If you want to talk about the best ways to defend against strikes, look at people who do it on a regular basis. Boxers, kickboxers, MMA guys, all use movement and covering far more than any other type of defensive technique and it saves them from getting knocked out time and time again.

RBSD instructors the world over recommend jamming and various types of covers, because rather than trying to defend against a specific technique coming at you, you have a much greater chance of dealing with the energy coming towards you regardless of the end result.

And has for the "dont pull your hand to the hip when you do it for real" thing. I never really understood this when i did karate. Why train one way and the do something that is the complete opposite when you use it for real? There is always the argument that it teaches hip rotation and use of certain muscles etc. But the way i see it, if your hand is going to be up when you actually do the technique, then train that way from the start and learn the best way to do the technique from the position it will actually be used.

[bushido_man96]

I see the points that you are making, cross. All the maneuvers that RBSD instructors do and teach are very well and good. However, that doesn't mean that other options are not every available.

In the post where I describe the hard block, I am not describing it in the traditional MA manner, so to speak. I am describing an arm movement that originates from the "oh, crap" position (which is, I think you will agree, the position that most confrontations originate from), and then moves to stop the attack. It does not necessarily terminate in a "high block position" or a "middle block position;" it just terminates. This could be a jamming move, as well. It doesn't have to be attack specific. It is just a modified movement, similar to other hard movements.

In the Close Quarter Combatives that I have trained (an RBSD style, for all intents and purposes), many of the defenses originate with the block/pass/pin drill. This is what I see as a very shaved-off traditional type of block; as much as it can be after the modification.

[DWx]

Interesting discussion. I find it strange that people continue to state that traditional karate blocks are are highly practical way of defending against strikes.

Firstly, these techniques are fairly attack specific. So you need to be able to interpret what is coming at you while its in motion. To block a punch to the face, you use a rising block, but you wont know its a punch to the face until they are already at least half way through doing the punch, and thats if you are able to see it at all.

Also, the idea that a block is a strike, or that you should be blocking has hard has you strike doesnt make sense when you consider that the attacker is already far ahead of you because they are acting, and all you can do is react to whats coming at you, this doesnt leave you with a great deal of time to see what they are throwing, choose the appropriate technique, and then execute it hard, all within the short space you have left before you get hit.

If you want to talk about the best ways to defend against strikes, look at people who do it on a regular basis. Boxers, kickboxers, MMA guys, all use movement and covering far more than any other type of defensive technique and it saves them from getting knocked out time and time again.

RBSD instructors the world over recommend jamming and various types of covers, because rather than trying to defend against a specific technique coming at you, you have a much greater chance of dealing with the energy coming towards you regardless of the end result.

And has for the "dont pull your hand to the hip when you do it for real" thing. I never really understood this when i did karate. Why train one way and the do something that is the complete opposite when you use it for real? There is always the argument that it teaches hip rotation and use of certain muscles etc. But the way i see it, if your hand is going to be up when you actually do the technique, then train that way from the start and learn the best way to do the technique from the position it will actually be used.

I will have to disagree with this. A "formal" block has worked for me in the past. One of my mates was messing around and decided to try to kick my knee when I wasn't looking (not a very nice thing I know ). Anyway, I ended up hitting her with a low knifehand block/strike and spinning around to face her in a guard. Although my none blocking hand didn't get pulled back to my hip, it did sort of come back to my torso and I then instinctively lifted it higher as I went into a guard. All this I did without consciously thinking about it and had to stop my self when I started to throw a punch.

All in all the actual technique was pretty poor as I had the wrong angle, the wrong target and all those other things... but it did stop her from connecting and following through. Maybe its the way I train but these blocks feel strong and natural to me and I probably wouldn't hesitate to use them for real.

[Justin Treadaway]

Interesting discussion. I find it strange that people continue to state that traditional karate blocks are are highly practical way of defending against strikes.

Firstly, these techniques are fairly attack specific. So you need to be able to interpret what is coming at you while its in motion. To block a punch to the face, you use a rising block, but you wont know its a punch to the face until they are already at least half way through doing the punch, and thats if you are able to see it at all.

Also, the idea that a block is a strike, or that you should be blocking has hard has you strike doesnt make sense when you consider that the attacker is already far ahead of you because they are acting, and all you can do is react to whats coming at you, this doesnt leave you with a great deal of time to see what they are throwing, choose the appropriate technique, and then execute it hard, all within the short space you have left before you get hit.

If you want to talk about the best ways to defend against strikes, look at people who do it on a regular basis. Boxers, kickboxers, MMA guys, all use movement and covering far more than any other type of defensive technique and it saves them from getting knocked out time and time again.

RBSD instructors the world over recommend jamming and various types of covers, because rather than trying to defend against a specific technique coming at you, you have a much greater chance of dealing with the energy coming towards you regardless of the end result.

And has for the "dont pull your hand to the hip when you do it for real" thing. I never really understood this when i did karate. Why train one way and the do something that is the complete opposite when you use it for real? There is always the argument that it teaches hip rotation and use of certain muscles etc. But the way i see it, if your hand is going to be up when you actually do the technique, then train that way from the start and learn the best way to do the technique from the position it will actually be used.

Cross, I see what your saying. Thats why in our style its all about footwork. We also parry/deflect instead of blocking. Also if we miss the deflection we are out of the way of the punch anyways. We also use our footwork to get into a position to control the opponents next move. Our philosophy is if they make the first move on their own we control every move after that. For instance, If they throw a right punch and we deflect it and move to our left, we then jam the arm in, then a strike to the ribs/face whatever. The only thing they have left is left hook, or a spinning back fist, which we are prepared to take care of. You can only deflect or block so many punches you are going to get hit eventually. Thats why 99% of the time we are going to deflect the punch, empty (strike the opponent to take his mind off of whats coming next), then go to arm bar/break or a throw or a wrist lock etc etc. If you just stand toe to toe and try to deflect or block then punch or kick then its anybodies ball game. But if I learn to control what my opponents moves are then I am in control. Also most of drilling we start from earth stance. Which is just you standing their with your arms by your side. Now if i know the fight is coming I will get into a fighting stance of some sort which will never be a deep stance but usually is cat stance or a 45 stance.

[KamasandSais]

I've always thought evading would be better for a fight. I probably haven't had much experience in real fighting. But I think evading is the choice if you dont want to get hurt.

[Kajukenbopr]

Interesting discussion. I find it strange that people continue to state that traditional karate blocks are are highly practical way of defending against strikes.

Firstly, these techniques are fairly attack specific. So you need to be able to interpret what is coming at you while its in motion. To block a punch to the face, you use a rising block, but you wont know its a punch to the face until they are already at least half way through doing the punch, and thats if you are able to see it at all.

Also, the idea that a block is a strike, or that you should be blocking has hard has you strike doesnt make sense when you consider that the attacker is already far ahead of you because they are acting, and all you can do is react to whats coming at you, this doesnt leave you with a great deal of time to see what they are throwing, choose the appropriate technique, and then execute it hard, all within the short space you have left before you get hit.

If you want to talk about the best ways to defend against strikes, look at people who do it on a regular basis. Boxers, kickboxers, MMA guys, all use movement and covering far more than any other type of defensive technique and it saves them from getting knocked out time and time again.

RBSD instructors the world over recommend jamming and various types of covers, because rather than trying to defend against a specific technique coming at you, you have a much greater chance of dealing with the energy coming towards you regardless of the end result.

And has for the "dont pull your hand to the hip when you do it for real" thing. I never really understood this when i did karate. Why train one way and the do something that is the complete opposite when you use it for real? There is always the argument that it teaches hip rotation and use of certain muscles etc. But the way i see it, if your hand is going to be up when you actually do the technique, then train that way from the start and learn the best way to do the technique from the position it will actually be used.

it doesnt matter where his attacking hand is because you are not trying to intercept his fist for example: if someone is throwing a punch at you, you block trying to hurt his arm, elbow, forearm or shoulder( obviously moving out of the way first), not intercepting the fist so you can hit back, that would be a complete waste of effort.

Also, the leg positions and the hand positions are not supposed to look like a boxing position, while you could argue those are better positions than the ones in Karate if you feel they are superior.

as for the comment about reaction to the opponent's attack, yes, you are right they are moving first,however that doesnt mean you will think which block will work better, move back to chamber the arm and then try to block. With your training you should know which blocks work better against different attacks.

training with chambered arms help you learn the body mechanics more easily( keeping your elbows down and back, using all the muscles instead of just the arm, etc)

[cross]

I will have to disagree with this. A "formal" block has worked for me in the past. One of my mates was messing around and decided to try to kick my knee when I wasn't looking (not a very nice thing I know ). Anyway, I ended up hitting her with a low knifehand block/strike and spinning around to face her in a guard. Although my none blocking hand didn't get pulled back to my hip, it did sort of come back to my torso and I then instinctively lifted it higher as I went into a guard. All this I did without consciously thinking about it and had to stop my self when I started to throw a punch.

All in all the actual technique was pretty poor as I had the wrong angle, the wrong target and all those other things... but it did stop her from connecting and following through. Maybe its the way I train but these blocks feel strong and natural to me and I probably wouldn't hesitate to use them for real.

When you compare the situation of a friend trying to kick you in the knee and a complete stranger who is physically larger than you who is intent on ripping your head off, or slice you to pieces with a blade, you begin to understand that unless the techniques you perform are thoroughly pressure tested, the chances of you performing them under such stress are slim to none.