Blocking and parrying in combat

[Johnlogic121]

What are your thoughts on this? Is it unrealistic to block and parry in a real fight? I mean blocking/parrying in the manner of classic Kung Fu/Wing Chun. Or is the only realistic defense in a fight, intercepting with another attack, or the blocking in European Boxing?

What do you think and whats your experience?

I am a scientific researcher and developer for the Central Intelligence Agency and I teach a martial art called Montgomery Style Karate. From what I have been told, our soldiers do utilize blocks in combat situations from time to time. There are simply situations where blocking is convienient. The SCARS system that was once used by the Navy SEALS did not utilize blocking, but rather it intercepted attacks or took an offensive approach by supposing that you were able to seize the initiative and act first rather than counterattack your aggressor. However, the SCARS system has proven less effective than other systems and civilians can train in SCARS now.

Wing Chun blocking and parrying differs from karate blocking and parrying in that the Wing Chun stylist will probably attack with the second hand while the first hand is preforming a defense. Wing Chun is noted for its simultaneous blocking and striking and both arms are fighting in that art at the same time than in any other. Certain krate styles incorporate two hand movements, but these examples are often in the form of double attacks. In Wing Chun, the block or parry performed with one hand is almost always supplemented by an attack from the other hand. This gives Wing Chun a unique advantage, as an attacker is usually at his least defensive position as he is executing his attack.

Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do (Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do) evolved out of Bruce Lee's fundamental training in Wing Chun combined with his lifetime search into effective methods of other martial art styles. JKD prefers to intercept attacks with a counterattack of one's own. Bruce Lee adopted this idea from Western Fencing, where the most powerful attack is called a Stop-hit, in which you stop continuous motion to invite an attack and then dodge the other man's sword before attacking with a thrust.

European Boxing primarily dodges attacks. There are blocks in boxing, such as covering the face with one or both hands, and blocks that hit out in a circular parry against the attacker's wrist or boxing glove.

In my research, dodging is more effective as a defense than blocking alone and the best defense utilizes both with an emphasis on dodging.

Consistent practice with dodging and blocking is the key to building a good defense. Chuck Norris used to train in attacking drills that had the defender preform a realistic block to an actual attack, and his Tang Soo Do instructor emphasized such drills to 80% of the total training time. If you are in a dojo that emphasizes actual dodging and blocking practice less than fifty percent of the time, then you are practicing attacking without developing the defensive skills. By practicing a good dodge or block to a real attack, you practice a real attack at the same time the other person practices a realistic defense.

[TraditionalDan]

This gives Wing Chun a unique advantage

Of course this is true, but as a karate practioner who practices wing chun. I would say that karate does have some simultaneous block-attacks, especially in the goju/uechi styles.

Not only this, the use of one striking hand is so that the other is free to with withdraw to project power into the striking hand.

The withdrawing is also a practice for grabbing and pulling, into an attack for instance.

None of the methods are better, but both have quite different reasons behind them.

[bushido_man96]

If your technique doesn't work or look right, then you need more reps.

more reps?

that's chi training don't you know....

I really don't think it is. I have never done any formal "chi" training, and I never really plan to (meditation, etc.).

[mantis.style]

That is exactly my point. If you look at what a lot of proper traditional "chi" exercises that were part of the internal martial arts training, you'll see that the majority of them target very specific muscle groups and/or are plyometric in nature. Meditation isn't strictly part of chi training. It was part of the old taoist/bhuddist ways but that was to do with the religion, not the martial art. When I was practicing my tai chi, my training was pretty much like it was with my wing chun which was pretty much like my mantis.

Forms, singular drills, partnered drills, secondary forms, secondary excercises etc etc. The only differences really were in the execution of techniques and the philosophical reasons behind them. In practice, if you took out the poses, you wouldn't know what style it came from.

[bushido_man96]

So you are saying that repetitous technique practice is "chi" practice, and therefore, any style reaps the benefits of chi from it?

[mantis.style]

Just trying to point some of the differences between what is part of the martial art training of some styles and what is part of the religious practice from where the style comes from. Remember that when you talk about these things, they are all linked. To properly channel energy, you have to use "chi". That is the full classical way of describing it. In modern terms, what that means is that to make the most of your punch, you have to use methods that result in the greatest output. Thus, that reperitive grinding arm exercise trains "chi". That long stance standing trains "chi". That throwing and catching heavy bags trains "chi" all for the purpose of maximising the effect of your punch. What you miss when talking about it in english is the very subtle but marked difference between energy/strength and "chi". Then again, to be strictly accurate, in chinese you don't actually say that you train "chi"either. It is merely the name that describes a way of doing things and in some cases, even just goes to describe a feeling. In case you didn't know, the chinese terms for anger has the term "chi" in it. It's use is purely descriptive and metaphorical.

[Justin Treadaway]

What are your thoughts on this? Is it unrealistic to block and parry in a real fight? I mean blocking/parrying in the manner of classic Kung Fu/Wing Chun. Or is the only realistic defense in a fight, intercepting with another attack, or the blocking in European Boxing?

What do you think and whats your experience?

I am a scientific researcher and developer for the Central Intelligence Agency and I teach a martial art called Montgomery Style Karate. From what I have been told, our soldiers do utilize blocks in combat situations from time to time. There are simply situations where blocking is convienient. The SCARS system that was once used by the Navy SEALS did not utilize blocking, but rather it intercepted attacks or took an offensive approach by supposing that you were able to seize the initiative and act first rather than counterattack your aggressor. However, the SCARS system has proven less effective than other systems and civilians can train in SCARS now.

Wing Chun blocking and parrying differs from karate blocking and parrying in that the Wing Chun stylist will probably attack with the second hand while the first hand is preforming a defense. Wing Chun is noted for its simultaneous blocking and striking and both arms are fighting in that art at the same time than in any other. Certain krate styles incorporate two hand movements, but these examples are often in the form of double attacks. In Wing Chun, the block or parry performed with one hand is almost always supplemented by an attack from the other hand. This gives Wing Chun a unique advantage, as an attacker is usually at his least defensive position as he is executing his attack.

Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do (Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do) evolved out of Bruce Lee's fundamental training in Wing Chun combined with his lifetime search into effective methods of other martial art styles. JKD prefers to intercept attacks with a counterattack of one's own. Bruce Lee adopted this idea from Western Fencing, where the most powerful attack is called a Stop-hit, in which you stop continuous motion to invite an attack and then dodge the other man's sword before attacking with a thrust.

European Boxing primarily dodges attacks. There are blocks in boxing, such as covering the face with one or both hands, and blocks that hit out in a circular parry against the attacker's wrist or boxing glove.

In my research, dodging is more effective as a defense than blocking alone and the best defense utilizes both with an emphasis on dodging.

Consistent practice with dodging and blocking is the key to building a good defense. Chuck Norris used to train in attacking drills that had the defender preform a realistic block to an actual attack, and his Tang Soo Do instructor emphasized such drills to 80% of the total training time. If you are in a dojo that emphasizes actual dodging and blocking practice less than fifty percent of the time, then you are practicing attacking without developing the defensive skills. By practicing a good dodge or block to a real attack, you practice a real attack at the same time the other person practices a realistic defense.

I agree with most of what your saying but dont limit it to wing chun. Our style of kung fu has the same principles, as does most of other chinese arts. We always deflect while the other hand is striking which then leads to more.... Thats the whole point of circular/linear movements.

Edited July 27, 2007 by Justin Treadaway

[Justin Treadaway]

So you are saying that repetitous technique practice is "chi" practice, and therefore, any style reaps the benefits of chi from it?

If your techniques are right then yes. If you know how to be relaxed until impact and your train for this, then yes you are practicing your chi. But Boxing for instance even though they punch the bag 254235324 times they are relying more on strength and not chi. Thats why you see those little 80 year old chinese masters that can still hold their own. You won't see someone who practices a "hard Style" doing this. Because when you rely on your strength at 80..... then its pretty much useless.

[mantis.style]

So who are these 80 year old masters who win fights and have you seen any of them? A punch is a punch. A structurally correct punch is better than an incorrect one. By your rational that a guy who uses "Chi" is going to better, that suggests that "chi" is better than simple muscle strength. To me, that sounds like one of the McKwoon excuses of not having muscle working training.

[bushido_man96]

So you are saying that repetitous technique practice is "chi" practice, and therefore, any style reaps the benefits of chi from it?

If your techniques are right then yes. If you know how to be relaxed until impact and your train for this, then yes you are practicing your chi. But Boxing for instance even though they punch the bag 254235324 times they are relying more on strength and not chi. Thats why you see those little 80 year old chinese masters that can still hold their own. You won't see someone who practices a "hard Style" doing this. Because when you rely on your strength at 80..... then its pretty much useless.

Actually, I don't think Boxers are punching with just strength alone. There are a lot of Boxers out there with quick hands, even the heavyweights. There speed is just as much a subject of technique as comes from any other style. I think there are a number of hard stylists that are into their 80s, and still punching just fine. Besides, even some hard styles teach to be relaxed until the moment of impact; I believe that Karate styles call this "kime."

I used to have a student who boxed in the 1940s and '50s. He would come train with me once a week. I have never been hit as hard as I have by this guy, who was in his late '60s.