A Bunkai revolution?

[G95champ]

Prob. Like most I was not taught very advanced bunkai at first. I sort of found out more about it as I started to cross train in other sytles.

Shotokan kata has LOTS of meanings other thant he traditional block and punch most of us are taught from day one. Basically we teach now each and every move is offensive, defesnive, a throw, lock, takedown, etc. We ask our students to look at it from all sides. Standing, Laying, In thight places in open spaces. We ask them to think of it in reguards to weapson even O shotokan does not teach weapons. Then fianlly we ask them to think of it in reguards to naturea and the name of the kata how does this apply.

There are a lot of great books and web sites out there that goes into Bunkai. When one studies shotokan very well they will find a lot of judo, jujitsu, and other styles in it.

[bushido_man96]

I feel that the term "mastery" is very ambiguous. It is hard to dictate, with no hard and fast rules binding it.

I feel that learning to deal with the three ranges of combat from the beginning is the best way to address self-defense. Knowing how to take someone down is the best way to be able to defend a takedown.

As for taking someone out in 3 hits, I feel that this cannot be made into a hard and fast rule, either. In the chaos of a fight, you have to take what is given to you, and nothing is guaranteed. Just becuase a striker can't take someone out in 3 hits, doesn't mean that they have not mastered their striking aspects, in my opinion.

[cross]

I feel that the term "mastery" is very ambiguous. It is hard to dictate, with no hard and fast rules binding it.

I feel that learning to deal with the three ranges of combat from the beginning is the best way to address self-defense. Knowing how to take someone down is the best way to be able to defend a takedown.

As for taking someone out in 3 hits, I feel that this cannot be made into a hard and fast rule, either. In the chaos of a fight, you have to take what is given to you, and nothing is guaranteed. Just becuase a striker can't take someone out in 3 hits, doesn't mean that they have not mastered their striking aspects, in my opinion.

Excillent points.

[RealWingChunKuen]

I feel that the term "mastery" is very ambiguous. It is hard to dictate, with no hard and fast rules binding it.

That is understantandable as many people who call themselves "masters" have no where near mastered anything about their arts. This has created a grey area to what masters are, or what mastery is.

Knowing how to take someone down is the best way to be able to defend a takedown.

It obviously helps to know how to perform a technique if you are to defend against it. However, I don't think it is a closed or shut case as many grapplers who couldn't strike properly have proved when they defeated strikers. It is also important add that traditional karate and kung fu contain many potent takedown techniques, that should be trained thru a hollistic training approach.

As for taking someone out in 3 hits, I feel that this cannot be made into a hard and fast rule, either. In the chaos of a fight, you have to take what is given to you, and nothing is guaranteed. Just becuase a striker can't take someone out in 3 hits, doesn't mean that they have not mastered their striking aspects, in my opinion.

I made the assumption that the blows had already penetrated the defenses of the opponent and were hitting the intended targets. If that is the case then an expert karate/kung fu striker should take out his opponent within 3 hits.

Note: Most traditional styles of karate/kung fu use vulnerable areas as their primary targets, eg. throat, neck, back of neck, groin, temple, eyes and some not so obvious areas.

[Andrew_Patton]

There are a lot of great books and web sites out there that goes into Bunkai. When one studies shotokan very well they will find a lot of judo, jujitsu, and other styles in it.

Lets take this example and delve just a little deeper into it, so you're saying something like say the opening movemet of pinian shodan/heian nidan according to Iain Abernethy is a good interpertation? (simultaneuous up block and middle block, arm cross, and front hand punch) Last time I checked he had that sequence as a three-step grapple sequence that was very much like a standing americana/keylock! I dare you to go out and apply that on someone and you will see that it is much more complicated to apply than just simply using the exact same hand positions you do in your kata and apply them as an easier meaning.

Now I am NOT saying there isn't some sort of grappling in Karate kata, but what kind of since does it make to find a text-book O-soto Gari, Kimura, or Double-leg take-down as executed in a more modern art, one-hundred or more years after a kata was invented when judo/jujutsu/greco or freestyle wrestling has become the "in thing?"

What happens if you're taken down?

Well, if you want a good reference point the best I can find is Keith Hackney vs. Royce gracie from the older UFCs (number 4) Keith is an old school "hard knocks" Karate guy, and gave Royce quite the tooling until he got taken down, Keith didn't do a wrestler's sprawl or anything, just shucked Royce off... Now, you have at the time a Nobody (Hackney) and one of the Best BJJ guys out there (Royce) and Royce was barely able to get Hackney to the ground...

Let me put if like this, In Karate we have various throws (not judo throws, karate variations, ones that are made for a striker (stay away from the abernethy ones, some of his are.... suspect at best IMO)) and something that is very under-utilized by Karate-ka the Plum clinch (neck clinch, thai clinch etc.) a pure striker's tool! And it's right there in Pinian Yodan/Heian Yodan! and no-one uses it, Why is this the case? It's right there, and it's a great tool... We have great throws, and VERY powerful strikes, and no-one can use them, why is this? Rules when we spar!!! I've gone to tae-kwon do tournaments, point-sparring tournaments and Kyokushin tounries and they all have some sort of restriction on karate (not talking about the "secret mystical death-touch" here) I'm talking about a good, solid lunge punch, or neck clinch that even at a karate tournament is made illegal. When you aren't allowed to utilize your power in a tournament you aren't going to study it as hard as possible and when you don't study hard down the line your students students will only be able to hit as hard as the average person...

Now, within the past seven or eight months, I have removed ALL boxing from my Karate, there is no jab/cross/hook when I spar in a Karate environment, I have elbow, knee, lunge punch, reverse punch, Naihanchi shodan, etc. Whatever I need to spar someone is in my kata, I have combinations that work against people with national championships in point sparring, and ones that work against my boxing buddies. I've had nearly everyone I've used them on (even my ultra simple, lunge punch, reverse punch, step reverse punch combo) ask me what in the world I was doing... And everyone of them that KNEW a martial art at all was blown away that basic day one stuff completely threw them off... I know what you're thinking, taking your hands down to throw a punch makes you slow, you see, if you think that you're not setting your moves up correctly. Let me show you how.

Lets say I'm throwing a lunge punch, if I step in and throw my punch with no set up, it's not really gonna work. if you look at a step and punch in karate before you even punch you have a hand forward... This is your set-up it's kind of like "ground and pound" in the UFC, when a fighter wants to throw an elbow from top position he'll put his hand on his opponents forehead, then bend his arm and force his elbow down. Well, this is almost what we're doing here, but we're raking his guard hand down, or smacking him in the face and popping him with our punch in the body. If you don't use every part of your Art, you're not using it! Think about that "useless" hand in many attacks in your karate like a jab. It's your set-up.

Now I gotta admit this is not the rule, there are time you'll swat an attack away with the lead hand or grab your opponent (his attack, his lapel, behind his head) then follow up with an attack of your own (let's say elbow) but that's a different story... Along with "dirty boxing" and a few other nasty tricks that are alluded to in your katas. Maybe when I have more time?

Sorry if this isn't 100% readable had five minutes to type this.

[bushido_man96]

There are a lot of great books and web sites out there that goes into Bunkai. When one studies shotokan very well they will find a lot of judo, jujitsu, and other styles in it.

Lets take this example and delve just a little deeper into it, so you're saying something like say the opening movemet of pinian shodan/heian nidan according to Iain Abernethy is a good interpertation? (simultaneuous up block and middle block, arm cross, and front hand punch) Last time I checked he had that sequence as a three-step grapple sequence that was very much like a standing americana/keylock! I dare you to go out and apply that on someone and you will see that it is much more complicated to apply than just simply using the exact same hand positions you do in your kata and apply them as an easier meaning.

It may be more difficult to perform, however, with practice in application, you can make it work. It may not be the same as others, but with time and practice, it may be applicable.

Now I am NOT saying there isn't some sort of grappling in Karate kata, but what kind of since does it make to find a text-book O-soto Gari, Kimura, or Double-leg take-down as executed in a more modern art, one-hundred or more years after a kata was invented when judo/jujutsu/greco or freestyle wrestling has become the "in thing?"

Actually, I think that many of these types of techniques have been around for a very long time. Hellenic wrestling and Pankration surely used some forms of these takedowns, and the there are Medieval European manuscripts of wrestling techniques used in combat, as well. They may not have included the "technical" perfection required to get a point in Judo competitions, etc, however, they may have been there.

[Andrew_Patton]

may be more difficult to perform, however, with practice in application, you can make it work. It may not be the same as others, but with time and practice, it may be applicable.

Whenever I teach something I like to play the percentages. Lets say if I have a 2% chance of performing the lock in question, if the grab/punch is at the correct level, if the strike is on the right side of my body, etc, etc. Then the fact that I have to maintain a grip on my opponent, namely on the wrist, then factor in the opponent jerking away from my hold, you have something that looks kind of iffy in the percentages department.

And, yes, I garantee there are movements that look like or act like judo movements, but you wont find a text-book judo movement in your kata, or a perfect muay thai, jujutsu or wrestling move in there. You might have a modified "karate version" but the chances of finding something complex and from the other side of the world in Kata is hit and miss. Karate has throws, takedowns, trips, joint locks, etc. but they are their own beast. Created by Karate-ka thru the ages and put in our kata.

Remember one thing, if your imi (intent/movemet) doesn't match your kata movements (body placement, hip rotation, stance, power generation) then you are doing something incorrectly.

[bushido_man96]

Whenever I teach something I like to play the percentages. Lets say if I have a 2% chance of performing the lock in question, if the grab/punch is at the correct level, if the strike is on the right side of my body, etc, etc. Then the fact that I have to maintain a grip on my opponent, namely on the wrist, then factor in the opponent jerking away from my hold, you have something that looks kind of iffy in the percentages department.

I agree with this. You make a good point. High percentage is the most important aspect of successful self-defense. You can also see it in the many MMA matches today.

And, yes, I garantee there are movements that look like or act like judo movements, but you wont find a text-book judo movement in your kata, or a perfect muay thai, jujutsu or wrestling move in there. You might have a modified "karate version" but the chances of finding something complex and from the other side of the world in Kata is hit and miss. Karate has throws, takedowns, trips, joint locks, etc. but they are their own beast. Created by Karate-ka thru the ages and put in our kata.

I think that many of the throws, trips, and takedowns would have existed before, when Karate-jutsu's focus was weapon combat in warfare (before it really would have became what we know of as Karate today). However, when it moved from bujutsu to budo, things changed quite a bit. I would have to admit that it is tough to practice takedowns and trips practicing a kata by yourself. And maybe practitioners figured out ways to work them into the forms; and then again, maybe they did not. So, the debate continues.

[GOM]

Shotokan kata has LOTS of meanings other thant he traditional block and punch most of us are taught from day one. Basically we teach now each and every move is offensive, defesnive, a throw, lock, takedown, etc. We ask our students to look at it from all sides. Standing, Laying, In thight places in open spaces.

# - To understand the applications and principles within Shotokan kata, you need to look at versions of kata before they were 'shotokanised'. To not do this you are falling into the trap that many are in. My club was no different. We were fitting applications to the techniques of modern karate, rather than understanding the original intent.

We ask them to think of it in reguards to weapson even O shotokan does not teach weapons. Then fianlly we ask them to think of it in reguards to naturea and the name of the kata how does this apply.

# - Funakoshi actually did kobudo. There are many photo's of Funakoshi practising bo and sai. Apparently his favourite bo kata was Tenryu No Kon. Unfortunately, not a lot of Shotokan clubs teach kobudo anymore.

There are a lot of great books and web sites out there that goes into Bunkai. When one studies shotokan very well they will find a lot of judo, jujitsu, and other styles in it.

# - There are some good ones, but the crap one's far outweigh the good one's. It is far better to learn from a teacher than from a book.