A Bunkai revolution?

[Mike Flanagan]

What it really boils down to IMO is whether you can make your version work against realistic attacks.

Mike

Or better yet, would you use it.

Same thing. If its robust and workable then I think the chances of it being convoluted are slim. If I find a technique can work with a good degree of reliability then, by definition, it will be one that I feel comfortable with and would therefore use it.

I'm very much a believer in making the kata work for you, not you working for the kata.

Mike

[bbk2132]

I think bunkai is great. My organization has a set of bunkai for everykata and you are required to know them all for black belt. It really helps to give the kata a real life application, and i have also noticed that it really helps me realize the importance of kata. My sensei may be teaching us some new technique and i can usually find some kata that it is from. For nidan and above gradings, my sensei makes you make your own variation bunkai from the kata, preform it and explain where in the kata it comes from. I truly believe that having the ability to pick apart kata is a very important skill for any martial artist.

[BT]

Cool thread. I've got a couple of points I'd like to raise, as a novice.

How can you learn anything new by making up your own bunkai? If kata are mnemonic devices, aren't you working in the opposite direction?

That is, in order to make your own effective bunkai, you would surely need to learn all of the principles behind your art first, and then make your bunkai.

^^Where is the worth in that? Why bother with kata at all if you didn't use it to help learn the karate in the first place?

[cross]

Cool thread. I've got a couple of points I'd like to raise, as a novice.

How can you learn anything new by making up your own bunkai? If kata are mnemonic devices, aren't you working in the opposite direction?

That is, in order to make your own effective bunkai, you would surely need to learn all of the principles behind your art first, and then make your bunkai.

^^Where is the worth in that? Why bother with kata at all if you didn't use it to help learn the karate in the first place?

Most often people try to validate their hours spent training in kata by creating "applications" to the techniques.

[BT]

I went through that at my first karate club, but trying to make up your own bunkai, or use someone's else's bunkai, appears to have have no practical value.

I own Bunkai-Jutsu by Iain Abernethy, but--apart from the fact that I don't train in Wado-Ryu--I don't see how the text can help a novice or advanced student.

A novice student needs to learn from a sensei, who holds all the understanding and can pass it on to the student. That sensei should be using kata to help teach that understanding, by explaining the principles behind each move and how they are applied. The novice student just can't make up those principles for the kata, because they simply don't have the understanding to do so (I've tried!).

An advanced student has already gained the understanding of their art, they know all the principles, and can apply them fully. Once again, their sensei should have used kata to teach them, but let's assume that the sensei has not. If so, then what incentive is there for the advanced student to learn to apply the kata? Cross has already pointed out the first one that comes to mind, but that reason has no practical value at all. The advanced student has already been taught the skills and understanding by their sensei, what more will they gain from analysing kata?

[cross]

what more will they gain from analysing kata?

Nothing that couldnt be gained by more modern and productive training methods.

[Andrew_Patton]

I'm with most here that the Kata is 90% grappling epidemic needs to end. Although I'm now ademently against throwing in the "coolest" new ju jutsu, or judo lock/throw/manuever into our Karate kata, I've got to say this trend has at least led someone to look into their kata and try to figure something out.

A little over a year ago, I bought one or two of Iain Abernethy's books (the guy's stances and everything were WAY off, was the first thought I had when I started reading) but, it had some value, just took me a few months of looking for the latest armlock or choke to figure out how rediculous it was. Karate is and will always be a striking art, and that's where our MAIN focus needs to be, generating true power the kind of power that's legendary, the kind of power that people like mas oyama, and pat nakata are reputed to have. The stuff that legends are made out of. The grappling, throws, sweeps, etc. in our art should augment and set-up those devastating blows we should work on perfecting.

Thank you, and this is not meant to be inflamatory... we just need to look for the most devastating meanings behind our kata, not settle, but dig deep and work as hard as humanly possible. I once thought that finger thrusts in our kata were foolish at best, but have done the "watermelon break" among other things recently, and what it took was will and dedication to a cause, that's what we need to do, devote time to using our punching bags, etc to develop sledgehammers for punches and teach others to find that to, THEN we focus on the rest of the art. Remember there is one secret to Karate, the basics, master those and you've mastered your art.

[RealWingChunKuen]

I'm with most here that the Kata is 90% grappling epidemic needs to end. Although I'm now ademently against throwing in the "coolest" new ju jutsu, or judo lock/throw/manuever into our Karate kata, I've got to say this trend has at least led someone to look into their kata and try to figure something out.

A little over a year ago, I bought one or two of Iain Abernethy's books (the guy's stances and everything were WAY off, was the first thought I had when I started reading) but, it had some value, just took me a few months of looking for the latest armlock or choke to figure out how rediculous it was. Karate is and will always be a striking art, and that's where our MAIN focus needs to be, generating true power the kind of power that's legendary, the kind of power that people like mas oyama, and pat nakata are reputed to have. The stuff that legends are made out of. The grappling, throws, sweeps, etc. in our art should augment and set-up those devastating blows we should work on perfecting.

Thank you, and this is not meant to be inflamatory... we just need to look for the most devastating meanings behind our kata, not settle, but dig deep and work as hard as humanly possible. I once thought that finger thrusts in our kata were foolish at best, but have done the "watermelon break" among other things recently, and what it took was will and dedication to a cause, that's what we need to do, devote time to using our punching bags, etc to develop sledgehammers for punches and teach others to find that to, THEN we focus on the rest of the art. Remember there is one secret to Karate, the basics, master those and you've mastered your art.

Eventhough not a karate practitioner myself, I found your post to be very true, to my take on karate at least. Also, one needs power in any art that involves striking. Once one has gained the stopping, distructive power then other techniques become more relevant. And as you put it, the root to that power are in the basics.

There are grappling elements in karate and Traditional karate is a much richer art than many "outsiders" give it credit for. However, I believe that it is primarily a striking art, so this means the striking aspect should be mastered before one starts delving too deeply into the other areas.

This is not to say that one needs to only concentrate on striking techniques and ignore the others. I believe that this art can be practiced holistically but with striking as its main focus. Once a destructive striking force is achieved then the practitioner should delve deeper into his art.

Thanks again for the post.

[bushido_man96]

However, I believe that it is primarily a striking art, so this means the striking aspect should be mastered before one starts delving too deeply into the other areas.

This is not to say that one needs to only concentrate on striking techniques and ignore the others. I believe that this art can be practiced holistically but with striking as its main focus. Once a destructive striking force is achieved then the practitioner should delve deeper into his art.

I hear the first part of the above quote a lot. If this is the case, then how long before the striking aspects are mastered, and one can move on? And what about Kung Fu? Is it the same with Kung Fu?

The only issue that I have with this concept is this: What if you spend a few years learning to attack and defend as a striker, but then get attacked by a wrestler? You said that the style should be practiced hollisticaly, but when should that start? Is the wait really necessary?

[RealWingChunKuen]

I hear the first part of the above quote a lot. If this is the case, then how long before the striking aspects are mastered,

This will depend on the the individual karate-kai and his school/style/sensei.

And what about Kung Fu? Is it the same with Kung Fu?

Kung Fu and karate have some aspects in common, generally speaking. But the deeper one delves in kung fu the more he sees that there are great many differences in the techniques, their application; training methods; and variety.,etc. etc. Dare I say that kung fu is a "richer" art , again generally speaking.

I do not want to delve too much into the differences between kung fu and karate as this will take us away from what we are discussing. Also there are many karate styles with their own distinct differences and a whole lot more of kung fu styles out there.

However, it is best to say that in any art that involves striking such as karate and kung fu, one needs to develope striking power that is effective. There is no point in finding a "hole" in your attackers' defense when you are not able to stop them with a telling strike. All high level karate-ka and kung fu exponents should be able to finish conflicts with a minimum number of hits (1-3max), and depending on the style from short range as well. If they call themselves experts and do not have this capability then I would say perhaps they have spent their training time in Mcdojo/kwoon.

I know of a kung fu teacher here in London who took out an attacker who went for a grappling takedown with one back fist strike to the back of his exposed neck. How many times have we seen karate and kung fu "experts" in NHB contests who have hit the grapplers with ineffective blows while defending against takedowns? How many of them had really mastered their art? How many of them had, at all, practiced kung fu or karate?

The only issue that I have with this concept is this: What if you spend a few years learning to attack and defend as a striker, but then get attacked by a wrestler? You said that the style should be practiced hollisticaly, but when should that start? Is the wait really necessary?

Karate should be practiced be practiced hollisticaly. When the other aspects besides the striking will again depend on a particular karate style's cyllabus and traditions. You will find that traditional Okinawan styles such as Goju ryu will have a logical approach to how and when certain aspects are introduced within their training program.

I have seen matches between wrestlers and strikers. Many times the wrestlers won because the strikers had no idea on what to do when they were taken down. Other times, the strikers lost because they hadn't mastered and brought their striking techniques to a higher level. A few times I have seen strikers take out their grappler opponents with effective striking techniques.

This brings back to the point that Andrew Patton and myself are trying to make. When one practices a primarily striking art such as karate, then the least one can do is focus on the striking aspects and master them, developing the necessary power and accuracy before one starts to delve too much into the arts other aspects. Of course as I stated before the other aspects can be trained as well, but the main focus should remain the striking elements.